The Mosque Is Not About Religious Freedom
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"As a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances." —President Barack Obama
An Amazingly True Statement
More on the Mosque by Springboard at Blogspot
- President Obama Is Not My President
The recent announcement by President Obama that he supports the mosque at Ground Zero being built is something I simply cannot live with. For me, it's the last straw. It is a huge insult to the people of this country.
Allow me to cut right to the chase, if you will, about this whole Mosque thing. This was, without question, a rather hot button topic from the start. But after remarks from President Barack Obama recently whereas he said, basically, Muslims can build a Mosque wherever they'd like to, thanks to religious freedom, the issue has gone front and center. And the heat is definitely ramping up. So much so, that we now have the president essentially waffling over his former statement, now saying that he wasn't necessarily commenting on whether or not he thought it was a wise choice to build a Mosque in a location near Ground Zero. Only that he was speaking directly on the issue of religious freedom.
The fact is that most people agree on the issue of the right to build the Mosque. Sure, we can build anything anywhere we'd like to so long as there are no laws or ordinances against it. And absolutely we can build a place of worship for any religion our hearts desire. Yes, it is a part of the Constitution of the United States, a document which most of us conservatives, if not all of us, hold as one of the most sacred documents in our country, second only to perhaps the Bible itself.
We cannot set aside our Constitution for any purpose. Nor should we have the slightest inkling of any desire to do so. I certainly can speak for myself in saying I have no interest whatsoever in walking over or around the Constitution.
The issue here is not about the right to build the Mosque. It's not at all about religious freedom. It is about tolerance for the sensitivities of Americans, and especially tolerance for the sensitivities of the families of the nearly 3,000 innocent, civilian Americans who died on September 11, 2001 when 19 radical Islamic terrorist Muslims chose to attack the United States, and target American lives in honor of Allah, and for the cause of Islamic Jihad.
Essentially, while it may not have been the Muslim faith as a whole, who declared war on the United States, it was a faction of the Muslim faith that certainly was behind the declaration of war against us. There is absolutely no question whatsoever about that fact.
While it's true that America is made up largely of a wide variety of religious beliefs—we are certainly not all Christians—our country is still primarily considered to be country of Christians, whose foundations in our laws, and in our culture, whose customs are certainly all based on Judeo-Christian philosophy.
That is who these people were fighting against. That is what is at the heart of their war against us, which despite the lack of recent attacks, is ongoing. On their soil we are infidels. In this world we are infidels. Non-believers of the Muslim faith, and we must be eradicated.
In a way that makes a Mosque near the location of Ground Zero the ultimate symbol of victory for the terrorists. And again, it erases any idea that building this Mosque is about freely pursuing one's religion.
This was an act of war. We need to be clear on that. September 11, 2001 is a day that will forever live in infamy. The site of that terrible attack which took so many lives, and shook our nation to the core, will forever be hallowed, and sacred ground. It should be a place which our enemies should never be able to congregate, for any purpose, nor under any circumstance. It should be a place which only symbolizes and embodies the true spirit of American pride, American courage, American liberty, and American resolve.
Yes. Religious freedom is very much a part of all of that, which is really the spirit of America. But so is a Mosque a part of who and what attacked the core of what we are as a people that fateful day, and for that reason alone, it cannot, and should not be built.
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The president presented a non-issue by talking about the rights in the constitution. I consider it an insult to my intelligence and that of the American people.
Thank you for putting this issue into perspective. I am so annoyed that the MSM keeps beating a totally irrelevant and stupid drum. It is about decency .
Jim,
I wholely support your position on this mosque. I know September 11,2001 was my 55th birthday and the last time I celebrated it on that day of infamy. I never before felt hated just for who I was. NO MOSQUE on Ground Zero!!!!!!!!!!!!
voted up & beautiful! We as American have been very tolerant of Muslims. It's about time we see some tolerance on their part by abandoning the idea of a mosque near ground zero. I think it's a shame we don't have a president that can see the wishes of the people. Maybe he is blinded because of his own Muslim upbringing and the fact that he is in fact illegal himself.
I completely agree with your position for this mosque. They won't even tell us where the money is coming from although is looks like Saudi Arabia is again is paying for the mosque as they paid for the 9/11 attack even if there are using some pretend Christian organization out of Denmark or where ever. No mosque! It is a slap in our faces and I can only hope it will be stopped somehow. Your article is excellent, rated up!
Obamas statements just buried the Dems last weekend Springboard. And all I want to ask these Muslims is why ? Anywhere but there ! Screw political correctness.
The ultimate symbol of victory for the terrorists - exactly.
Springboard, what is your suggestion? If you don't think it should be built, do you think the govt should intervene? I know you are not calling for that but what do you think should happen?
I'm sort of in agreement with the president. They certainly have the right to build but it may not be the wisest thing to do.
It sort of baffles me how much attention it is getting, especially from conservatives. There is already a mosque 4 blocks north of ground zero on warren street. There is another a few blocks east of that.
I wonder if all those on this hub standing strongly against the Mosque would take the same rigorous stance against the Catholic Church. The Catholic church has payed out 3 BILLION dollars to settle sex abuse cases and thousands of priests have been accused of sexually molesting young boys.(actually, more than 10,000)
Think about those numbers. If this were a daycare organization, it would be shut down today. My point in bringing this up is to encourage people to look at the double standard.
A mosque at Ground Zero isn't offensive. a statue to Osama bin Laden would be, but that hasn't been proposed.
If you are offended by this mosque, then you are conflating Islam with terrorism. Stop it! The two aren't the same. There are Muslim terrorists, Christian terrorists, Jewish terrorists, and Hindu terrorists, but none of them represent their religion.
I personally agree with you- it is in bad taste, and those in the Muslim world who do hate us ( not at all rare )can point at that mosque as a symbol of how they are 'conquering the infidel on his own home ground' - on his own SACRED ground.
Progaganda wise, it's a disaster.
Amen. This is an intentional insult and no amount of denying it alters that fact. Just because something can be done,doesn't mean that sensitivities and common decency should be sacrificed in the process.
We may have different religions, different languages, different colored skin, but we all belong to one human race.
-Kofi Annan
It is EXTREMISM that is the real enemy in many circumstances because it leads to insensitivity, closed minds, pain,suffering,lack of respect for human life and the loved ones surrounding those - innocent Muslims also died in the 9/11 attack - about 28 according to one source. What happened that day diminishes all of us, just like the holocaust or any other atrocity. I dont think looking at these things, anyone should ever have an easy complacency, apathy or think the answer is self-evident without due process and consideration.
Dahoglund, absolutely. The answer to this question just seems so obvious...yet here we are.
POP, exactly.
Tom, I'm just glad that at least there are still some people who will never forget.
Samsons, I think in this country we've become tolerant of MANY things. Of Muslims, certainly. Like I said to Dahoglund, this just seems so obvious that this is a terrible idea to build a Mosque where Imam Rauf wants to build it.
Pamela, that's one thing that has irked me as well. Where is the money coming from? And if this is to be a "bridge," then why would this be tied solely to Muslim faith...why not make it a "religious center of worship" which INCLUDES a Mosque, as well as places of worship and congregation of other faiths? This is not about religion, or religious freedom. This is about Muslim victory. I am wholly convinced of that. And what of Hamas? Why will Imam Rauf NOT identify Hamas with terrorism?
I would only add that IF the Mosque ever breaks ground, life for anyone working on the project, and the days after its opening will surely not be something I'd want to be around.
Tony, yes, I definitely think this will be an issue going to the fore in the mid-terms. Pelosi's comments alone are absolutely flooring.
Sheila, that's exactly what it is. I am convinced of that. It's surprising how many people simply cannot see the reality here.
LRC, with all due respect, I cannot even comment on that sort of logic. Catholics have done some abhorrent things to be sure. Also to be sure they did not fly airplanes into our buildings and kill 3,000 people.
BTW, I want you to think of the sensibility of this issue LRC. I am a cold-blooded killer. I brutally murder your son. In a few years I move in next door to you. You'll come over and have coffee with me, right?
D'oh! I commented. :)
Chasuk, everything about this attack was based on the Muslim faith, in the name of Allah, and in the cause of Islamic Jihad. Again, if you want to build an AMERICAN non-denominational center of worship and prayer, go for it. A Mosque is about victory plain and simple. A bridge, by the way, travels in both directions. A Mosque only travels in one.
Springboard,
It is so very predictable that those on the wrong...oops, I mean LEFT side of this issue ALWAYS point out that there is another mosque very close nearby. WELL, then WHY is there a need for another one this closeby?? Also, they always ask about other religions, and as I saw you say above, Catholics have done some not great things as well, like MOST every group on the planet. However, they did not MURDER THREE THOUSAND civilians!!
I still can't wrap my brain around it. Everytime it's brought up I just can't process any good reason WHY! That's what keeps coming to mind WHY JUST WHY?
Springboard, again as pointed out by fellow hubbers, you are making the mistake of equating all muslims to terrorists. In your analogy, you are saying the killers are the same ones moving in next door. The Muslims did not attack us on 911, Al Queda did. Your analogy is saying that all muslims are responsible for 9/11
SHERI - The reason there is another mosque is because the other 2 have to turn back people because they do not have enough room. I've heard in some areas of the country, there can be more than one church in the same town, how crazy is that?
By the way Sheri, millions of people have died at the hands of Christians over the centuries (ever hear of the crusades?) Want a more recent example? How about the KKK, they were mostly christian baptists. Does this make all christians clan members? Of course not.
LRC,
Never siad ALL muslims are terrorist. NEVER said they are disallowed from building where they have land. Never siad only one mosque per city; however, there is MORE than one mosque near to that locale. I am sick to death of you libs ALWAYS living in the past!! The crusades were CENTURIES ago and no group of radicalized Christian extremists has EVER, i repeat, EVER perpetrated ANY atrocity approaching the evil we witnessed on 9-11. As for the KKK, the late DEMOCRAT senator from my state, Byrd, was a former member of that group, but since he was a dem, the MSM just gave him a pass!!
My personal opinion: Obamma was putting his mouth in gear before engaging his mind. Whether building another mosque is right or wrong is not the question. The issue is why does it have to be so near Ground Zero? Where it would be an affront to the families of those who died there, and also be a symbol for terrorists of their victory over the cursed infidels!
Sheri, I don't care if Byrd was a Dem or Republican, the point is the KKK was almost all Christian Baptists. Let's not pretend that only muslim religions carry out terrorist type of activities.
I'm not arguing over which religion is worse, I'm simply saying that we can not condemn muslims based on the acts of extremist radicals. Ask yourself this, in attacking the WTC, what did Al Queda hope to accomplish? #1, They said they would drag the US into war bankrupting our country. #2, they said they would start a holy war
Let's not support terrorists in either of these causes. Turning against muslims is exactly what they want us to do. It helps them fuel the 'holy war'
LRC,
Those are your thoughts and opinions and they will NEVER be mine. I don't give a shit about ANY holy war, and I don't give a shit if muslims like me or not.
Spring,
Great hub - remember When islam takes over an area- moors in Spain what did they do?
Thats right they built churches on conqured territory-
I would rather see a business retake the spot than a church- christian, jew , Hundu Rasta or Islamic.
But again- the left does not care or understand "We the People " who oppose this MEGA MOSQUE- What would Saudi Arabia do if we bought the parcel across from the dome of the Rock and built a "Communitycenter MEGA- CHURCH"
They would not even come close to allowing it- i know well we aewn't saudi Arabia.... Folks- the Islamers and their ilk are overrunning our country and they have the Liberals help in all this-We have to make a stand-Certain areas CANNOT be built on - Whats next they buy the Lincoln Me,orial and turn it into the Allah memorial-If there is another Mosque nearby- knock that down and build a bigger one- you guys have the money....you could buy out the neighbors and make another mosque quite larger than the MEGA Mosque-Stimulate the economy in 2 ways= in a location that ius already there....
why can't they do that
WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE HERE-
Why can't the orthodox church get the same easy treatment instead the NYC council is stoppin themmm... does that seem odd to anyone else.???
So why don't they respect our desires for a change the government prohibits child molesters from setting up residence in the school zones why do we have to let them build here. Unfortunately the powers that be will not sack-up and tell them NO....
I am sure they ha ve denied builders permits on other less contriversial reasons hhh,mmmm? I wonder how high it goes up???
TH
Hellert,
HERE HERE I completely concur with your accurate statement of truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Carolina, it's just a bad idea is about as plain and simple as it gets.
Sheri, they (the wrong/left—aren't they synonyms lately?) simply will do all they can to make this about freedom of religion, because as far as the left is concerned, 9/11 happened because America is full of bad people who deserved what they got. We're just not friendly enough to our enemies in the world.
Katie, that's the $64,000 question. Why?
LRC, I am NOT equating all Muslims with terrorism, but no one here can deny the direct correlation to the Muslim faith as a large basis for the attacks BY Al Qaeda. THAT cannot be discounted. When we were attacked by Japan, we were not attacked by Buddhists. We were attacked by the Japanese. There is a distinction that needs to be drawn here. If Muslims gave a damn about America, and gave a damn about 9/11, and gave a damn about the 3,000 Americans which included American-Muslims to be sure, then THEY would be as openly opposed to this as the rest of America is. And again, as I responded to Casuk's comment, it's worth repeating, "Everything about this attack was based on the Muslim faith, in the name of Allah, and in the cause of Islamic Jihad. Again, if you want to build an AMERICAN non-denominational center of worship and prayer, go for it. A Mosque is about victory plain and simple. A bridge, by the way, travels in both directions. A Mosque only travels in one."
!!! You written a very good piece that captures all that's important and at issue with the building of this mosque. All the efforts to point to the Constitution, to chest thump about religioius tolerance -- all are moot when compared to the insensitivity of its building and the victorious nature of their building it in that spot.
As I've said before, folks who point to other mosques in the area as examples or justifications for allowing this one, are full of bull. The very fact that those mosques already exist so close to the proposed site of this one, is the SINGLE biggest supporting argument for the fact that the building of this mosque is to make a SNEER of victory at Americans, at predominately Christian Americans.
This mosque is not needed for daily prayers by Muslims in this precise area, the existing mosques are more than adequate.
I could be mistaken, however, I just watched a very authoritative video that stated that there was NEVER a plan to build a Mosque. A "Mosque" is a Islamic holy place, what was planned was a community center with a prayer room on the 13th floor. It included a basketball court, and a culinary school. . . . .that's not very frightening.
Wesman, please come down here to reality. You know I value your opinion. But let me give you one point to consider. I can put lipstick on a pig. It doesn't mean it isn't ugly. It doesn't mean it isn't a pig. I can dress up in a skirt. It doesn't mean I'm a woman. I've seen the artist's renditions of the proposed Mosque. I've heard people call it a Muslim Cultural Center instead of a Mosque. It doesn't have a dome. Americans are not naive people. We are not dumb. We cannot be so easily fooled. That's what they'd like us to believe. This is a bridge. This is a cultural center. This is a place for all to enjoy. It's not REALLY a Mosque.
I do not think so.
Yes, and the planes that flew into our buildings weren't a terrorist attack. It was simply a terrible misunderstanding.
Please.
LRC and Sheri, enjoying the debate. :)
Springboard, I do enjoy your hubs and agree that it is certainly a controversial topic.
All of this debate reminds me that there is one truth in all of this. This world we live in would be much simpler without religion. I think John Lennon had it right when he sang:
"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... "
I can't imagine this post makes me any more unpopular with the conservatives on hub pages than I already am so I figured, why not.
Hey, I don't like Islam either buuuuuttt. . . .
When they came for the communist-I said nothing, I wasn't a communist. When they came for the Jews-I said nothing, I wasn't a Jew. . . .. and when they came for me. . . .
It is insensitive. Freedom is not free remember!!
I like the way you think!
LRC........basically you, and John Lennon, would be imagining the pre-Christian and pre-Muslim and pre-Jewish days, and the reality is that even though there were not organized religions as we know them today, there were what is now referred to as 'pagan' beliefs. Without a doubt, for thousands of years the human race, no matter what continent, felt the power of something beyond their ken, felt the need to call on that power in times of good and ill, and acted on the need/the sense of something beyond their human life, by establishing beliefs, pagan beliefs and objects of worship. So, why am I saying this here? Dunno, it just clicked rapidly out of my fingers........
And, no, the building of the mosque has zero to do with religious freedom in the USA.
LRC, while I am well aware of the problems of religion and religious differences. . . . . .wish in one hand, and ____ in the other.
Sorry, it's just not logical(in my mind) to even imagine a world with no religion. I am a huge John Lennon fan though. . .
@Springboard: Al-Qaeda is an Islamist terrorist group. The Lord's Resistance Army of Uganda is a Christian terrorist group. Neither Al-Qaeda nor the Lord's Resistance Army are representative of Islam or Christianity.
When the Lord's Resistance Army murders, abducts, and mutilates, we don't blame Christianity. We don't, because to do so would be stupid.
Al-Qaeda isn't building a mosque. If they were, the outrage would be understandable. But they aren't, so the outrage is stupid.
I just have one question why do liberals always support any side that is not American or Patriotic ?
@tony0724: Because that's how you choose to define it?
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." -Sinclair Lewis
I spent a decade in the military defending the rights of Christians to build churches wherever they want, and of Muslims to build mosques wherever they want. I understand what liberty actually means. Most of those posting here don't.
Chasuk.......could that be the very Reverend Wright wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross? All wrapped up in the cross? Or his best and greatest acoylite? Who would that be? Just a thought, for sure my very first thought.
And I don't think my forebears fought for the likes of Wright and his ilk, or any comparable of other religions, to take over this country or any other country, as the only true Christian or Muslim voice, or Jewish voice for that matter.
This mosque has ZERO to do with religious freedom.......nitey nite.....
@KFlippin: I'm not sure what the Reverend Wright had to do with this thread. Enlighten me, please.
The mosque has everything to do with religious freedom. Osama bin Laden in thrilled that the left is opposing it.
A quote from a former FBI terrorist interrogator:
"There are many reasons for supporting the Muslim community’s right to build a cultural center and mosque on private property, not least of all the First Amendment of the Constitution guaranteeing freedom of religion. But from a national security perspective, our leaders need to understand that no one is likely to be happier with the opposition to building a mosque than Osama Bin Laden. His next video script has just written itself.
The potential damage to our national security is not only to our work abroad, but at home too…When demagogues appear to be equating Islam with terrorism, it’s making young Muslims unsure about their place in the country. It bolsters the message that radicalizers are selling: That the war is against Islam, and Muslims are not welcome in America."
I have to go with Glen Beck, and say the building of the Mosque is not a big deal. Let them spend the millions, it will help the economy.
Keep on hubbing!
Like the title said Chasuk this mosque has absolutely nothing to do with religious freedom. Do they have a right to build it there ? Of course they do. That is not the issue. The issue is why would someone knowing full well the implications of their decision ,go ahead and light a fire under the ass of America collectively. I am deeply offended by this Imans decision and I am definitely in the majority on that. Just because they can does not mean they should. At some point you have to draw the line on political correctness.
@tony0724: This has nothing to do with political correctness.
I answered your question, now kindly answer mine: why are you offended?
i am offended because they know damn well that this is a very sensitive area for America and you know as well as I do that this is the equivalent of spiking the ball for a touchdown. And it has everything to do with political correctness. If they want to build a bridge between our cultures you do not do that by rubbing our noses in it. And if you cannot see that you are obviously in denial !
@tony0724: It is sensitive to those who allow it to be. As I've pointed out before, this isn't Al-Qaeda building a mosque. This is everyday Muslims building a mosque. Being offended makes absolutely no sense.
Did you know that Catholic priests have molested over 10,000 little boys? Are you offended when Catholics builds a church near a daycare? If not, why not?
Don't you understand that Al-Qaeda wins whenever we allow our emotions to overwhelm our reason and common sense?
Catholicism and pedophile Priest are an entirely different subject matter and not germaine to this topic. I like 70 % of America have no problem with a mosque and this guy wants us to be sensitive to Islam? I got news for you respect is a two way street and they are being completely insensitive to the American public. They want our respect ? You gotta show some respect and their actions show a complete lack of respect. And I go by what a person does not what a person says. Talk is cheap !
Why are you offended by Muslims building a mosque near Ground Zero, but not offended by Catholics building a church near a daycare?
Please don't avoid this question.
Lets stay on topic here Chasuk. We are discussing Islam and a mosque in a area most of America does not want it. Quit the deflecting. We can discuss religion or my lack of it another time.
It is typical of the the left, when they can't answer a question, to avoid it, and then accuse their opponent of deflecting.
Rather, it is typical of those who can't support their ideas, left or right.
I won't make your "liberals always support any side that is not American or Patriotic" generalization.
How many different ways do I have to say this we are talking about a mosque proposed to go on a site that tears at the heart of a nation ? Why do you keep going on tangents ?
And I'm trying to determine why the construction of a mosque tears at the heart of a nation when the construction of a church doesn't. How many ways do I have to draw the parallel? How long are you going to dishonestly avoid it?
Because two jets were flown into towers on September 11th of 2001 and was in close proximity of the proposed site. I can send you some news articles of the event if you would like. And if catholics had crashed planes into the building I would not want their church there either. And this is an apples and oranges conversation now . And there is nothing dishonest about staying on topic. Focus Chasuk I gotta get to bed pretty soon , I go to work early
Focus, Tony. Al-Queda flew jets into the Twin Towers, not the entire religion of Islam. If someone were erecting a statue in honor of Osama bin Laden, your offense would be logical. It isn't logical now.
And to reiterate nobody is blaming all muslims. And I guess I am going to have to reapeat myself nobody is saying don't build a mosque , everybody is saying please do not build a mosque there. It is a sign of disrespect to the families of the dead , the city of New York and America in general. And if we want to use metaphors that would be like us putting a church in Hiroshima and Nagasaki or even an American community center. If they want us to be sensitive to Islam it is not unreasonanble to expect the same courtesy from Islam to us
If you aren't blaming all Muslims, then you shouldn't have a problem with Muslims building a mosque, regardless of its location. Consciously or unconsciously, you are equating all Muslims with Al-Queda, or the location wouldn't bother you.
Showing respect and sensitivity, after reading this, that seems to be the real issue we must face which means keeping an open dialogue and keeping hate out which means pulling our heads in sometimes and being humble in all sincerity.
Lj, very good point. I think we can all agree that we ALL have certain rights under the Constitution, but we still must have prudence in exercising them. For example, I am free to say whatever I want. My speech is protected. However, if I exercise that right without prudence toward my boss, he could fire me. If I exercise my right without prudence to an ethnic group, I could get a punch in the mouth. Everyone has the right to bear arms, but that doesn't mean EVERYONE gets to.
Tom Hellert, well said and on point. I keep thinking the same things. WHY a Mosque? Why not a non-denominational community center if you want to have some religious connection to it? It's about two things, this Mosque. Victory and arrogance. That's the only "why" I can reasonably come up with.
Kflippin, loved your comment, "The very fact that those mosques already exist so close to the proposed site of this one, is the SINGLE biggest supporting argument for the fact that the building of this mosque is to make a SNEER of victory at Americans, at predominately Christian Americans. This mosque is not needed for daily prayers by Muslims in this precise area, the existing mosques are more than adequate."
LRC, it could be that religion does cause some problems. But I'm not so sure it's always religion, itself, which is at the root, but one's interpretation of what their religion means. I've also said that one does not need to be religious in order to be good, which I tried to explain as best I could in a hub I wrote, "Religion Is Not Necessary." I am not a Christian, yet I still oppose the Mosque. I also oppose abortion. I also oppose gay marriage. For whatever any of that is worth.
TO ALL, just wanted to note I'm going to try and do my very best to join in on the discussion whenever and wherever appropriate to do so...don't want anyone to feel like I've left the building or anything. :) Woke up this morning and didn't expect to have opened up such a large can of worms.
Drbj, Obama has a very bad habit of putting his foot in his mouth. Put another way, every time Obama speaks a shovel flies out of his mouth and a hole forms at his feet. As he begins to explain his true meaning, he grabs the shovel and digs more dirt. Corny I realize, but it's early this morning and my coffee is only getting started. :)
Wesman, they came for Americans. Perhaps that means, in essence, they came for Christians. I am not a Christian, but I AM an American, and I am also a patriot, which means, even if I am not a Christian, I am fully aware that my country, and my system of government was built around Judeo-Christian philosophy. I cannot be FOR my country, and call myself a patriot, and be AGAINST Judeo-Christian philosophy. That puts the two very much together for me, and quite frankly, makes them inseparable.
Springboard, wasn't I just saying your hubs are thought provoking?
@Chasuk - you are arguing with a wall. Despite conservatives saying the correct things like "not all muslims are terrorist" those against the building of this cultural center clearly can not make a true distinction. You sir are 100% correct in my opinion.
Hey, anyone want to grab a picket sign and join me in protesting catholic churches being built within a mile of a school, daycare, etc? According to the conservatives, it is an insult to the people who have suffered from catholic priest sexual abuse.
Psychicdog, no one here is denying that many Muslims are American too. No one here is denying that Muslim Americans died at Ground Zero or on 9/11 as well. 28 of them did according to your numbers (and I hope you are not including the 19 of them who flew the planes). But Muslims did not ONLY die at Ground Zero or on 9/11. Therefore, a Mosque only represents THEM. Again, this is about victory and arrogance. That is as plain as the nose on my face. If this had a thing to do with compassion, a thing to do with religious freedom, a thing to do with serving as a tribute to those AMERICANS who died on that day, then this would not be a Mosque that anyone would be proposing. It would be a non-denominational, multi-faith center for ALL AMERICANS to worship, pray, mourn, honor, and remember what happened on that infamous day.
Right on! Write on! We as a God/Christ based country have been slapped in the face so often for so long, we are becoming de-sensitized!
You did a very good job with this article!
To truly represent freedom, they would build a religious complex that would house and represent every single religion of the people who were murdered on 9/11.
Drchris, exactly.
Ed, thank you. :)
Chasuk, again, comparisons like that simply do not wash. You said, "When the Lord's Resistance Army murders, abducts, and mutilates, we don't blame Christianity," citing them as a Christian terrorist group. They also did not drive airplanes into our buildings. Uganda is not the United States, and what the Lord's Resistance Army does in Uganda has nothing at all to do with the United States, who and what attacked US, nor the proposed Mosque being built.
Tony, the simplest answer to your question why do liberals always support any side that is not American or Patriotic? is that liberals are anti-America. I can see no other explanation. For whatever reason they hate America.
Chasuk, I spent time in the military as well, and if I were to serve to see a Mosque erected at or near a place where radical Islamic Jihadists (Muslims) launched a direct attack against our country, I would walk off the field. The purpose for my sacifice would be for moot.
LRC, yes you did say that. As long as we can all agree to disagree at the end of the day, and debate anew on the next topic. Passions on this one certainly run very high, and I think if there is ONE thing we can all agree on, it is that the Mosque issue is at least one that should be high on the emotional scale for whatever reason it is that those emotions come forth. We may not all agree on why we give a damn, but at least we give a damn about something. That can be hard to find nowadays in this country.
Chasuk, surely you didn't mean "The mosque has everything to do with religious freedom. Osama bin Laden in thrilled that the left is opposing it." Umm. For the record the left is FOR the Mosque. Osama Bin Laden is calling all his buddies together for the victory party—which will invite Imam Rauf no doubt as well. Anyone see the clip of Imam Rauf on September 30, 2001 tell Ed Bradley of 60 minutes that Osama Bin Laden was "Made in the USA," and that American policies caused us to get attacked on 911?
THIS is an American? THIS is a man who wants to create a bridge between Muslims and Americans?
For anyone who is having trouble seeing, my wife just got a great deal on a pair of glasses at JCPenney's—50% off lenses, frames, and she even got Transitions. Perhaps you should go there and have your vision of America corrected.
Eovery, I vehemently disagree with you AND with Glenn Beck on this topic and find the logic behind the opinion terribly misquided. That said, I still value your opinion, and thank you for sharing it.
BTW, might I only point out that if nearly $2 trillion didn't help the economy, the $100 million this project would infuse into the economy isn't going to be worth a hill of beans to economic prosperity or improvement.
Chasuk, please refrain from following the traditional leftist method of argument by foregoing facts, or twisting facts to support your arguments. You said, "As I've pointed out before, this isn't Al-Qaeda building a mosque. This is everyday Muslims building a mosque."
No sir. You are incorrect. It is Imam Feisal Rauf who is the mastermind of the Mosque. A man who will not disclose where funding of the Mosque might come from. A man who will not identify Hamas or Hezebullah as terrorist organizations. A man who claimed 911 was our fault because of US policies, and who claimed Osama Bin Laden was "Made in the USA."
The last statements about 911 and Osama Bin Laden sound like very anti-American, radical ideology which is exactly the same ideology which caused Al Qaeda to send 19 radical Islamic terrorists onto four of our planes and fly them into three of our buildings, and may have succeeded in flying into a fourth had not the brave Americans of Flight 93 put a stop to it (or had the thing not been shot down, whatever the actual case).
If the everyday Muslim believes what Imam Rauf believes, then you are correct. They are NOT welcome here. Radical Islamic terrorist Muslims are NOT welcome here, and that Mosque is every bit as representative of radical Islamic terrorism as was the 911 attack itself so long as it stands in the vicinity of Ground Zero, or has an association with Imam Rauf and his anti-American beliefs.
Again, if you want to build an AMERICAN non-denominational cultural center fine. I see no problem in that. Put a Mosque in the damn thing. Fine. But just a Mosque? Come on. Please do not insult American intelligence.
Runabstract, thank you, and Happyher, EXACTLY.
Great hub and great debate.
I think 1 Corinthians 10:23 says it best:
"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive.
*New Living Translation (©2007)
A very interesting Hub and as you know, I share your views. There is still time for the decision to be revoked. Whatever happens, I hope peace reigns.
Cari, while I am not a religious man, that is very logical sense. Love it and thank you very much for pointing it out to me.
Lady_E, peace and sensibility. One can only hope they win out. :)
I liked the respectful tone of the hub. I had recently asked, in a hub (http://hubpages.com/hub/Ground-Zero-Mosque), for a sensible argument against the mosque as I really don't have time to read all the different crazy things being said. This wasn't crazy at all. However, I would like to ask, where do you draw the line. Is it 4 blocks? Midtown? I believe the site is two blocks from ground zero. Maybe the cut off should be one block around. I don't know but you're on a slippery slope. Thank for the hub.
@Springboard: What would an AMERICAN non-denominational cultural center be?
As for my statement, "Osama bin Laden in thrilled that the left..." Typo. Should have been right.
Imam Rauf's beliefs aren't particularly anti-American. Many patriotic Americans believe that Osama Bin Laden was "Made in the USA," and that American policies caused the attack on 911.
@LRCBlogger: Thank you. :-)
Thinking, if you can see it from anywhere at Ground Zero, it is too close. That's a good enough start for me.
Chasuk, an AMERICAN non-denominational cultural center would be a place of worship and prayer, of honor, memorial and remembrance for the lives lost, a place where ALL faiths and non-faiths could congregate for all the purposes I just stated. To single out Muslims and exclude all other religions, is simply not a bridge in my opinion. BTW, if you really want to reach out (the Muslims) and improve relations, then why not the loud and clear denouncement of radical Islam? Why not the loud and clear affirmation that Hamas and Hezbullah are terrorist organizations? Why not the acknowledgement of the torturous and barbaric nature of Sharia Law?
As for your statement that many patriotic Americans believe that Osama Bin Laden was made in America...that's an oxymoron if there ever was one my friend. "A patriot who belives 911 was our fault" is AS much an oxymoron as "jumbo shrimp." They are immediately contradictory, and in no way is it patriotic to believe such a thing. Not ever. If you ever should fly the American flag, you should be ashamed of yourself for even suggesting it.
Perhaps you may be interested in a hub I wrote a while back, "Profile of a Patriot," which was generally about Muslim profiling in airports, but which had the core of patriotism at heart. I'd love to know your thoughts.
Springboard
Good hub and so many comments.
My opinion is that Muslims have done little to decry the Islamic Terrorists and distance their religion from these followers of Islam.
The fact that the Muslims want to build a Mosque in the 911 sensitive area shows their lack of understanding of the real issues. All Muslims that don't separate themselves from the Islamic Terrorists are suspect as being the same as them.
In Iraq the Islamic Terrorists hide themselves in their Mosques while continuing to kill and destroy. Do we want to have that in the US.
While the Middle East claims that the Jews in Israel are killing their people, Jews have not been known to blowup buses, and other public areas, and I know of none in the US.
If it has all the attributes of a duck, then isn't it a duck.
My point is that it should be the core of the Muslims that should ferret out and decry those that are the terrorists, or that are rooting for the terrorists.
@Springboard: I'll read and comment on your link shortly, but I can tell you right now that we have differing opinions of patriotism. In my view, a patriot is willing to acknowledge his countries warts, and do so without equivocation.
So if you were living in Yugoslavia between 1991 and 1995, (just a FEW years ago, less than ten years prior to 9/11) what would you be hubbing about? Perhaps in support of the ethnic cleansing of the Croatian and Serbian Muslim populations? Yes, Christians in very recent times have committed horrendous atrocities including Christians in Yugoslavia and Christians in WWII in Germany.
You are using what I often refer to as garbage disposal thinking and logic. Just grind it all up and come up with some rabble rousing conclusion that sounds right because of what happened on 9/11. There are bigger and bigger issues here that are even beyond our own sense of nationalism, and perhaps it's time for countries to get beyond nationalism. For some strange reason, we are all for going beyond Nationalism here on the internet and we criticize countries like China for trying to control the internet.
I think your position misses the bigger issues of what will it take for human beings to stop killing each other. I might suggest, before you get all worked up about the proposed Mosque, you consider sitting down with the Muslims in that neighbrohood and see for yourself what kind of people they are rather than lumping them together with the folks who flew the planes into the Twin Towers.
I've read your hub on patriotism, Springboard. I disagree with most of it.
You wrap a lot of your rhetoric in the flag, so I think it appropriate to consider the words of veteran Gary May, who lost his legs in Vietnam:
"As offensive and painful as [flag burning] is, I still believe that those dissenting voices need to be heard. This country is unique and special because the minority, the unpopular, the dissenters and the downtrodden, also have a voice and are allowed to be heard in whatever way they choose to express themselves that does not harm others. The freedom of expression, even when it hurts, is the truest test of our dedication to the belief that we have that right."
And:
"The pride and honor we feel is not in the flag per se. It's in the principles that it stands for and the people who have defended them. My pride and admiration is in our country, its people and its fundamental principles. I am grateful for the many heroes of our country-and especially those in my family. All the sacrifices of those who went before me would be for naught, if an amendment were added to the Constitution that cut back on our First Amendment rights for the first time in the history of our great nation."
Chasuk
What is your opinion?
@OpinionDuck: I'e expressed my opinion multiple tines in this thread.
Sadly, one of my my most succinct replies remain "unapproved."
Springboard, I get what you're saying but once the towers are built, one will be able to see pretty far. I'm just saying.
????? How interesting that the American discussion of the basic issue of building a Muslim mosque in "spitting distance", as I'm fond of saying, is resulting in such anti-American, anti-Flag (if that's properly bespoke) discussion.
Any morally and high-ground objecting, to the objectors of this mosque, should try and transport themselves for just 5 real minutes in another country of current poliitcal issue, with those same thoughts, against that home country.........and then come running back home to America and give a big hurrahh and hug to all they see..........
@KFlippin: How interesting that a discussion concerning the construction of a "mosque" two blocks from Ground Zero earns accusation of anti-Americanism instead of calmly and rationally discussing the topic at hand.
Deflection is always easier than real debate.
This is not about religion, it is about resect.
Yes! This pinpoints more of the REAL issue that is going on. Well done. Am going to Tweet this.
OpinionDuck, one interesting thing about the fact that Muslims haven't had an outpouring of outcry AGAINST the extremists is interesting on another level. Everyone wants to bring up the Catholic church for example, or the Salem witch trials...
When the Catholic church was experiencing the height of its woes regarding wayward priets who indulged in little boys in an unsavory way, many devout Catholics said to the church, fix it or else. The Vatican was feeling the pinch. You could still be a Catholic and stand up and say to the church very clearly, what's going on is wrong. How you are handling it is wrong. I will not denounce my faith. I will not denounce my God. But I also will not support the institution of that God which defies the TEACHINGS.
The Muslims need to be very clear and very loud about their separation from the RADICALS. The fact that they are not is more than disturbing to me, and quite a bit telling.
Chasuk, then you and I disagree on the warts. I don't see any warts when it comes to 911.
Vrbmft, your statement, "There are bigger and bigger issues here that are even beyond our own sense of nationalism, and perhaps it's time for countries to get beyond nationalism," just reeks of a one world order, and with all due respect, people like you scare the hell out of me.
Chasuk, on your comment, "Sadly, one of my my most succinct replies remain 'unapproved,'" just for the record, ALL dissenting comments are approved here. That's what debate is about. I will never disapprove an opinion because it differs from my own. I am simply not as quick to get to the comments to approve them is all. Rest assured, dissent will not be deleted here, ever.
As to the following quote from Gary May, "This country is unique and special because the minority, the unpopular, the dissenters and the downtrodden, also have a voice and are allowed to be heard in whatever way they choose to express themselves that does not harm others," the Muslim radicals expressed themselves by killing 3,000 innocent Americans. The Muslims have not been clear enough or loud enough AGAINST 911, AGAINST terrorism, AGAINST radical Islam to be taken seriously about their expression in favor of building bridges.
It is a victory Mosque, and Americans best wake up to this and fast, or a day exactly like 911, or worse, is right around the corner.
Thinking, perhaps that's the gist of my thinking. ;)
Cooper, exactly, and Kflippin thanks for stopping by and commenting. It's been one hell of a debate here. :)
MsDee, thank you and thank you for stopping by.
I disagree, I think many Americans just fear Muslims because they feel that many of them are terrorists.
People have linked the Mosque builder to people who he had never talked to personally. But the other shoe has dropped.
This aint nuthin but politics yall
Fox news' second biggest shareholder has donated money for the mosque (and to the Bin Laden family),in fact, Fox news had no problem with the mosque plans until Fox's politicians wanted to reject that mosque built.
@Springboard: So, because not enough everyday Muslims apologized for the crimes of a radicalized few, those who do attempt to build bridges should be snubbed?
How many everyday Catholics apologized to you -- or to anyone else -- for the crimes of the larger institution?
Incidentally, individual Muslims have apologized to me for 9/11, and imams have apologized with fatwas:
Godwin, I'd like to see the proof of anyone's donations to the Mosque. So far as anyone knows, at this point the Mosque is unfunded. I would only add that a shareholder of a company does not represent the company's opinion per se. There are plenty of 'activist' shareholders out there who own companies and try to influence boards for a variety of reasons. Shareholders and boards don't always see eye to eye.
On the issue of the money, that's part of the problem by the way. We don't know where the money might come from.
As to the issue of Americans fearing Muslims, several Mosques were built after 911 in New York, and there have been Mosques built all over the country, not a single one of them caused an uproar from anyone, left or right. The issue is the location. The issue is the man behind it and statements he has made regarding the U.S. having perpetuted and instigated the attacks, and has said other very disturbing things about America, 911, and the Muslim faith as a whole. The issue is his refusal to openly affirm that Hamas and Hezbullah are terrorist organizations. I really feel like I'm repeating myself on this thread...
But those are the concerns of the American people. It has nothing to do with fear of Muslims, or prejudice, or racism, or hatred. This is hallowed ground where a terrible thing happened at the hands of radical Islamic Muslim terrorists, and despite all the rhetoric, this is no bridge.
Still, I respect your opinion and thanks for stopping by.
Chasuk, you don't build bridges by shoving yourself down someone's throat. It's just like some whacked out Christian walking up to me in the grocery store and proclaiming because I don't believe in God I'm going to hell. It doesn't make me respect one's Christianity. It doesn't make we want to know more or seek God. It makes me want you to go away and leave me alone.
If these guys want to build a bridge they must respect the opposing opinion, they must respect the opposing sentiment, and they must look to see and try to understand WHY it is that the other side is so strongly opposed.
I keep hearing this 'bridge' argument. This is no bridge, my friend. If it were, it would allow for compromise. Instead, Imam Rauf would rather spit in the faces of the MAJORITY of Americans who are strongly opposed and call them fear mongering haters.
Sounds like BURNING a bridge. Not building one.
The "mosque," assuming that it is built, will be a tall building in a city of tall buildings. Multitudes will walk by it daily without noticing it. That doesn't qualify as being shoved down someone's throat, unless this "mosque" sprouts legs and approaches strangers in a grocery store. I don't anticipate this happening.
Respect and compromise don't mean capitulation.
Let's suppose Rauf did compromise. Would reducing the height of the building to eight stories be sufficient? Five stories? What if he moved the "mosque" a further three blocks away. Would that satisfy anyone?
Chasuk, there is already a perfectly adequate mosque for "prayers" 2 blocks away, so no need to speculate on the change in sentiment with a 'move' of this mosque - they don't need one 2 blocks away -- which of course means they don't need this one either!! No, "respect and compromise don't mean capitulation" - in the American world, not Old America for sure - for the Muslim world, perhaps it is different, and of late it would appear so.
@KFlippin: I'm an atheist. Rather, I'm a non-theist. I don't believe that anyone "needs" a mosque, or a church, or a temple, or a synagogue, or a shrine. However, as long as you aren't fomenting violence against me in those mosques, churches, temples, synagogues or shrine, I don't care that religious folk continue building them.
My comments about bigger issues is not about a so-called one world order, but about you and me looking at our next door neighbor in the eye and seeing what that peson needs from us! Get a grip!
@vrbmft: I'm not sure why the New World Order is supposed to be scary, myself. I fully agree with your previous comments.
The problem with your article is that you don't distinguish between the religion of the people who brought down the Towers with the religion of the people who want to build the mosque.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/intro/islam
The article distinguishes between Traditional Sufism and Sufi Syncretism. They say Al-Queda and Islamic Brotherhood are "Traditional," so traditional, in fact, no one even refers to them as Sufi anymore. Not even the writer of the article after the first section.
Al-Queda is Wahhabi in ideology, and
"Wahhabis look at Sufi Islam as a deviation from the original Islamic rules. The inner link with God, typical for the Sufi followers, is denied by the Wahhabis. Wahhabis follow the old concept of jihad, meaning the holy war to convert the infidels. The Sufis have another interpretation of jihad. They see it not as a war against the infidels, but as a war that a Muslim has to fight against his own defects to try to reach perfection."
This mosque will be a slap in the face to Osama, not a victory for him, but for us because we're sticking to the idea of religious freedom which he hates, and for Muslims who don't agree with violence- the Sufis- whose worldview competes with Osama's.
Chasuk, I feel like I'm repeating myself, but so long as it is a Muslim ONLY anything, it is IMO inappropriate and insensitive considering all of the points and issues that have been discussed on this thread and in this op-ed. If it is going to be anything, then what I want to see is something directly related to the memorializing and honoring of those who died at Ground Zero. A non-denominational center.
And Kflippin is exactly right. There are plenty of Mosques already. Clearly the majority of Americans have voiced their opinion and said they do not want this Mosque anywhere near Ground Zero...
So again, how is this building a bridge?
Shep, that's a load of bull. Of COURSE all religions will have offshoots of sorts, if you want to call them that. In Christian faith there are all sorts of denominations. Baptist, protestant, catholic, presbyterian...
The issue is the location. The issue is the Imam. The issue is the comments made by the Imam 19 days after the buildings came down. The issue is the the refusal by this Imam to call terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hezbullah for what they are. The issue is that 70% of the American people oppose the Mosque.
I could go on, but I fear the point will not be made anyway.
The bottom line is that those who don't see any problem with the Mosque simply want to paint pretty pictures. Perhaps what's really going on beneath the surface is fear. Fear much like that of people who live among gangs. If you appease the gangs maybe they won't kill you in the streets. If you appease the Muslims maybe they'll find some other country to terrorize. If that's the case, we live in a far scarier world than I ever thought we did before.
Vrbmft, when my neighbors kill me, they need nothing from me but a swift response. This is not how one gets attention, nor is it even remotely a productive way to make me concerned for their needs. It appears what they need is Jihad, and they're getting that fulfilled.
Chasuk, your lack of fear for the New World Order now makes me fully understand all of your previous arguments on this thread. It all makes perfect sense to me now with all due respect.
@Springboard: What precisely, do you fear about the New World Order? No jingoism, please.
At least I learned something new this morning. I had to look up the word 'jingoism.' What scares me about the New World Order is that it's essentially one man, one nation, one system, basically one giant dictatorship. That's scary to me. You need a little bit of division. You need a little bit of separation. You need a little bit of diversity. You need checks and balances. If one man rules the world, he will single handedly destroy it. Too much power in the hands of anyone is never a good thing.
Global governance -- AKA the New World Order -- doesn't prescribe dictatorship, nor does it eliminate multiculturalism. I am a huge proponent of multiculturism. I would loathe the idea of world governance if I thought it threatened diversity.
The benefits of global governance are enormous. A borderless economy, the eventual end of petty sqabbling over sovereignty, the end of immigration issues, the adoption of a single currency... just to name a few.
I'm not for the government stopping it from being built.
I am for the people protesting it, refusing to build it and eventually burning it down. In a free society respect goes both ways.
You don't build something somewhere that pisses off 70% of the people unless you have ulterior motives.
Using your logic, then I suppose pro-choice activists would have the right to protest the building of a church or a Christian-faith-based center (like pro-life parent counseling organizations) near any clinic that has been bombed or terrorized by pro-life, Christian zealots. Remember, these things set precedents, so Christians interested in their freedom of religion ought to be wary about protesting the rights of others.
Insensitive or not, this is still very much a freedom of religion issue. Remember, if the insensitive and offensive are not protected, neither is anything/ anyone else.
Chasuk, but whose government would the NWO be based upon? Whose Constitution? Whose religion? Whose economic system? Capitalism? Socialism? Communism? Islam? Christianity? Buddhism?
I'm sorry, but I think you fail to see that multiculturalism is the very thing that would cause the NWO to be a failure in every place where any one felt like their order was set aside. Every country thinks it has the best ideas...that's why they govern the way they do. So who gets to decide? And who's going to follow along? And what if we don't like what we get?
No man. You can have your NWO and call it whatever you want. I think the world I love to live in would cease to exist, and as much as I may complain about this thing or that thing, I'd have it no other way than the way it is...
Here. In America.
Rlaf, I'll donate the matches. :)
Eatfiftyeggs, you are comparing apples to oranges. Please.
Okay, we'll call it apples-to-oranges if you want. The basic questions still stand -
If you set a precedent that says you can prevent people from exercising their freedom of religion on their own private property, what prevents others from doing the same to you?
And, does the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment provide for the freedom of religion, or not?
You can think the building of the mosque is in poor taste, you can think it is unwise, you can think that it is obscene and provocative, but are you saying that they don't have the legal and Constitutionally protected right to build it? Again, if the offensive and tasteless are not protected, what is? Everything is offensive and tasteless to someone.
Well, some families like the mosque being built and the topic was raised only because the Politicians in Fox news (even Laura Ingram didn't have a problem with it) decided they wanted to add fuel to the Presidents fire and raise up this mosque as some kind of terror mosque.
The building would be unwise if people opposed it from the get-go but as an American, I do not mind the mosque near ground zero, since as you say there are already mosques near ground zero
Its all about politics yall
@Springboard: I've lived in many countries, and most of them were indistinguishable from each other, in practice. I'm talking about matters of government, of course. Culturally, they were quite distinct.
THE European Union thrives while allowing members with disparate governments, so there is no reason the NWO could not do the same. Some form of socialism or democratic socialism would probably hold sway, following the example of the majority of successful (and happiest) nations. Most are Scandinavian. Whatever they are drinking, I will drink it.
Whose constitution? A new constitution, of course. There are many worthy templates.
What religion? Successful states are secular, so that shouldn't be an issue.
Hey Springboard, I am with you here. The hub I wrote on it is full of comments like this too.
What supporters of the mosque see is only the right for them to build, they do not see how inappropriate it is. With so many not having any moral backbone and having to stay so PC all the time, of course, they have to blame it on hate or they may see what they themselves lack in compassion and thoughtfulness.
And the poster right before me is wrong, Laura was for Muslim helping other Muslims assimilate into American culture as the Imam wife's first said. Now the Imam's wife is back tracking not Laura Ingram.
@Joni: I abhor political correctness. I mm motivated to do what is right, regardless of ostensible "correctness."
I am aware that this "mosque" offends many. But nothing about it should offend anyone who exercises their rational faculties for more than half a second.
Ignorance should never be propitiated.
Eatfifty, the argument I've made here is not a legal one. It's not a Constitutional one. I've not made an argument that anyone disallow the Mosque being built. We can all agree that it is legal to build the Mosque, and that Muslims have the right to build their places of worship wherever they may so choose. That's not open for debate.
The Mosque IS all of those things you ascribed to it. If this Imam was not being antagonistic or insensitive, he would clearly see that his endeavoring to build a bridge would be for moot considering the numbers, and considering such strong opposition to what he wants to do. It flies in the face of sensibility and common sense to suggest that the Imam's intent is anything other than arrogant or antagonistic considering he decides to call the sentiment of the American people he wishes to build a bridge to ignorant, fear-mongering biggots.
It's all about the context. It's all about what's between the lines. We're all smart enough, or should be smart enough to see that the Mosque being built, for ANY reason, as strongly as its opposed, just doesn't make any sense from an economical standpoint, and certainly not from a business perspective.
This Mosque, if it ever sees the first brick laid, will forever be fraught with dissent.
Godwin, when you keep pointing to Fox News, it makes anything you say here moot. This is not a Fox News conspiracy. As for the "some" people who want the Mosque, or who are not opposed to the Mosque, that would be the 30%. 70% of the American people do not want it, and do oppose it. That should speak for something. That should be a loud and clear message for the Imam. AND Americans should look to other Mosques in other parts of the world, look at where they were built. Look at why they they were built. This is a victory Mosque. As for the other Mosques, they are not near Ground Zero, but they are in New York.
Chasuk, the European Union is purely an economic collaboration. The governments still operate separately. And I should point out that the European Union simply made sense considering the very close proximity of the countries who participate, and the simple fact that Europeans travel around Europe like Americans travel around states. To have to change currencies all the time just gets to be daunting, inconvenient, and cumbersome for all involved.
As for NWO as a whole, I cannot call myself a patriot and be so ready and willing to dissolve my America, nor her sovereignty. It is IMO unAmerican to want to see her diluted and dissolved into something, I fear, would be totally unrecognizable.
Joni, that's one thing I've tried to convey, and that is that we all have this right or that right to do something according to the Constitution. Still, rights must be enjoyed with prudence and tact. I can have the right to say whatever I want, but I should be prudent and tactful in what I say. I have the right to bear arms, but if I've done something wrong, that right does not apply to me.
The logic the left wants to use to justify the Mosque is really, for me, par for the course. They will always be for the transformation and dissolution of America as we know it, because according to them, this is a terrible place and we're a terrible people. And besides, we caused 911, right?
Ugh.
Chasuk, our rational faculties tell us that if you want to build a bridge between two people, you don't do it by shoving your half of it down the other's throat. That's not building a bridge. That's not opening up the dialogue. That's not reversing the tensions. Look around you. Use your rational faculties. If 70% of the American people don't want this Mosque to be built where it is being proposed to be built, and the Imam KNOWS this, and his intent is to improve relations between Muslims and other religions in America, how does he get this done by doing the opposite of the what the majority wants and then calling everyone (70%) who opposes it ignorant, fear-mongering biggots?
Leaving everything else out ABOUT the Imam for a moment, just that alone, and that defiance alone says very cleary the Mosque is about victory and arrogance and not about building a bridge at all.
When I first heard about the whole topic I was in shock. It just Happens to be almost right next to where America was attacked and the world trade center was where america drew the line. And it just Happens to be an anniversy of that attack. New York is a huge city, if it was somewhere else it would be a nonissue.
I watched a little boy splash himself with icy water and howl "It's hot!" He splashed another little boy with the same water, and the second boy mimicked the first. The process repeated until there were half a dozen little boys screaming about being burnt by cold water.
The situation with the mosque is like that, except the little boys are all adults who shouldn't be so easily manipulated by hysteria. There is nothing offensive about the mosque, but these adults have shut their brains off and are responding to mob reflex.
Maybe you are right. Maybe it would be simplest to placate the stupid and the hysterical by building the mosque elsewhere, or not building it at all.
Maybe that's what will ultimately happen. But isn't it sad that we have to treat adults like children?
I guess a Catholic school built next to an elementary school is a victory for the pedophile priest that rape children. I guess a christian church built by white people near a black community is a victory for the Klu Klux Klan. I am in total disagreement with this article. It is a slap in the face for those American Muslims that have lost their lives serving this country. I have uncles that served in our armed forces and they are Muslims. Now America is telling them you can spill your blood for this country but you not will have the right to build a place of worship because some radical Muslims attacked US. You can go and Kill other Muslims in the name of America but you cannot have a place of worship any where you want unless the people approve of it. Those Muslims that died in the towers and died during the rescue cannot have a place of worship because of some radical fringe element? I think those in opposition are plain ignorant. You know there was a time that a black person if left to the majority would have never gotten out of slavery. I am appalled that Americans are willing to trample our Constitution because of some radical elements. The Klan claimed to be Christians and yet people still build Christians churches where ever they want. I am not opposed to the CULTURAL CENTER stop calling it a Mosque. SpringBoard have you ever been in a Mosque? Who have you gotten your information about Islam? It is a community center that anyone can go to with a gym, pool, theater, and many other things. Kinda like a YMCA or in my city the Jewish Cultural Center. Muslim Pray at certain times of day and having a place to go pray in the same building they have art classes only make sense. So get off this Islam is bad crap. Americans are so ignorant sometimes. The majority screaming against this Cultural center are White people so it is not surprising to see how ignorance trumps everything else. White people are notorious for being ignorant and intolerant to others. Very sad White people move forward like those of your race that understand dignity, tolerance and freedom.
Rasman, your racist rhetoric makes it impossible for me to respond. Still, I honor my personal policy that I will not censor and will, therefore, let the comment stand. Others can comment on it if they wish. Thanks for stopping by.
Evvy, exactly. Interesting isn't it? It's all just one big coincidence. It;s about a bridge. Nothing to do with 911 or victory...
Ahem. :) Please. When do these people think we were born?
Chasuk, two planes, and smoldering buildings in ruins with thousands of dead bodies buried in the rubble doesn't feel like a perception of hot water vs. cold. The reality is as plain as the nose on my face.
Springboard, I was not being racist I am not racist let's get it straight my wife is Caucasian and my children are mixed race. You automatically assume I am racist. Your reaction is a pure example of what I am talking about when it comes to ignorance. I was stating an observation that is rooted in truth. White America has shown it self to be very intolerant to others. History is a witness to this. I am not claiming all white people but just like you took offense to be put in the same pot as the ignorant whites so does those Muslims you place in the same place as the crazy radical elements. Yet when put in to context where you are a victim of this generalization it becomes wrong and racist. In the context of someone else being put in that generalization it is justified. The HYPOCRISY IS VERY EVIDENT. You only paid attention to the statements of the ignorant white people comment when there was much more substance to my comment. You made my point very clear. Do you understand now?
These Muslim American Soldiers don't deserve a place of worship if people have ignorant views. Honor these dead US Muslim soldiers that gave there lives for this Great Nation we call the United States of America. This family member does not deserve the freedom of religion right?
I don't think Freedom of Religion should be overruled because someone's feelings might be hurt.
After all, if you take into account the sensitivities of the families of the American muslims who died at ground zero, it would seem a terrible insult to say the freedoms of this country can be denied them just because the sensitivities of other Americans don't like it.
Given, the stakes are pretty high when we're talking about an event on the magnitude of 9/11, but that's all the more reason to stand by the ideals of the constitution.
There is no Tolerence for Intolerance.
hahahaha
Now from the information that I receive correct me if I am wrong but this cultural center was not in the exact place where the building was. So what is the problem....
@Springboard: You write, "Chasuk, two planes, and smoldering buildings in ruins with thousands of dead bodies buried in the rubble doesn't feel like a perception of hot water vs. cold. The reality is as plain as the nose on my face."
The reality is that Al-Qaeda does not equal all Muslims, or even most of them. The reality is that that stupid and hysterical people are allowing themselves to be manipulated by a cynical media and their own emotions instead of using their brains.
Whew! I didn't quite get through all the comments, but from the hub my take-home message is "The issue here is not about the right to build the Mosque. It's not at all about religious freedom. It is about tolerance for the sensitivities of Americans, and especially tolerance for the sensitivities of the families". Exactly. THis hub presents the best argument yet- in my opinion.
The whole constitution and rights ,etc are being exploited as of late due to other hot button issues like immigration so now everybody whips out the constitution every chance they get. The Mosque issue represents more of the immigration issue about who Amercians are. We are basically being told to lose our pride in being Americans or standing together- if we stand together, others view it as being bullies to the minority, etc. I don;t think the constitution should be used against Americans. Having lost someone during 9/11, it is most definitely about the sensitivity of victims and families.
Great hub by the way.
I get all the other points. They do have a right to build where they want. I know that and so does most other people who don't want it built there.
But since several people are giving examples outside this subject, stuff gets censored all the time in movies, music, video games because it offends people. So companies respect that and so censor. I'm probaly not making my point well but anyway the religious center will be built where it will be built and the general public will eventually get over it. The families who lost loved ones in 9/11 will still be grieving and the world will go on. And also I really do hope my earlier comment is completely wrong but I don't feel like it is.
Rasman, this is not an issue of white America vs. everyone else. This is an issue for AMERICANS, plain and simple, and race really has nothing at all to do with the case of the Mosque. It has no foundation in the overall argument. If 70% of the American people are opposed to the Mosque, that absolutely includes MANY, MANY black Americans as well as white Americans, Asian Americans, Mexican Americans, Italian Americans, AND Muslim Americans. And actually, I've seen a poll that said the number of Americans who oppose the Mosque is actually something around the order of 77%. So, we're not talking about a few people. We're certainly not talking about a few 'ignorant white people.'
BTW, I was not at all offended by your comment. I felt that it was inappropriate, out of context, without basis, and therefore it was not worthy of a response. Maybe that's a harsh way of putting it...but that's my thought about it. Still, as things go in America, you are entitled to have an opinion, and you are entitled to voice it, no matter how crazy or unfounded the opinion may be in MY opinion. I am entitled not to comment.
As for ignorance overall? The ignorance clearly lies on the shoulders of Muslims who can't understand why this simply flies in the face of common sense. The ignorance lies on Muslims who do not understand just how sensitive Americans are to being attacked, KILLED, for who THEY are.
And before you make the comparison that Muslims are being attacked for who they are...at Ground Zero the Muslim element is undeniable, and THAT'S why the dissent is there for the Mosque. There are Mosques all over the country, and not one of them is controversial. It is ALL ABOUT Ground Zero, 911, and Radical Islam.
Glenn, I actually agree with you. Again, the majority of the opposition acknowledges the Constitutionality of building the Mosque. That's never been the debate. It certainly hasn't been for me. It's about the sensibility and prudence of putting a Mosque in a place where clearly the majority does not want it. That would stand to reason from any logical perspective that IF your intent, as has been stated, is to build a bridge...then with whom are you building a bridge if 70-77% of the American people you wish to reach are opposed? It doesn't make any sense. So, if 70-77% of the American people oppose the Mosque, and it gets built anyway, how does that improve relations? I'm ALMOST hearing "Na-nanny-boo-boo, you can't stop me," from Imam Rauf and the other Muslims for the Mosque.
New Life, it's a stones throw and that's close enough. It is also, infact, on the same ground where the building stood where the landing gear of one of the planes that hit the towers hit first. So, it's as much a part of Ground Zero and 911 as anything touched by the event.
Chasuk, we're simply not going to agree. I think that much is clear.
Izettl, this hub has certainly opened up a can of worms. Nothing like a great controversy. :) But I enjoy the debate—hell, that's in my profile. Great comments, entirely agree, and thanks for stopping by to share them.
Evvy, I am convinced the chosen location for the Mosque is very much by design. And yes, it's sad. If the Mosque DOES get built, yes, we will all eventually get over it. Like 911, for those of us who give a damn, it will never be forgotten though. We will forever tell our grandchildren when we take them to that place, "Here is where America was attacked. And here is the monument we built for our enemies."
They should build a mosque wherever they want to, thats the constitution and not even you can change that.Stop equating Islam and terrorism, its not fair. Every sect would have individual that would just choose to do things in a different manner and give their own interpretation to things. That i believe is what is happening in Islam. In 1995, so many innocent muslims were killed during an ethnic cleansing in bosnia. Peace
I am not disputing their right to build a Mosque whereever they want to. I am disputing the sensibility of building it where they want to. I have no interest in, nor CAN I change the Constitution—I'm not sure I ever suggested I could. I'm just a working stiff who writes an opinion now and then for a little loose change.
I am also not equating Islam with terrorists. I AM equating Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, however, with terrorism. His statements on 9/30/2001 with Ed Bradley on 60 Minutes were very telling of his thoughts about America, 911, and terrorists. His comments to date are no different, and no less disturbing. His absolute refusal to associate terrorism and Hamas and Hezbullah is disturbing. The fact that he calls 70% of the Americans who oppose the Mosque as fear-mongering biggots is disturbing. That he has no regard for the sentiments of the majority of this country is disturbing. Considering the location of the Mosque, the NAME of the Mosque, and the history behind the name and the history behind certain Mosques being built at locations where successful attacks have occurred is disturbing.
I suggest that those who find the LOCATION offensive and have no problem with the religion of Islam - put together a fund-raiser for the 100 million neded for the project we all seem to support. If those folks who are so tolerant and undertanding of Islam (and only object to the location) can come up with $100 million first, the imam should agree to move the location elsewhere in NYC where he can still serve the local Muslims and the city at large.
On the other hand, if you aren't going to put up cash, maybe you should butt out. None of the people associated with this project had anything to do with 9/11. Trying to punish NYC Moslems for 9/11 makes as much sense as gang-raping a nun to punish the Catholic church for the actions of a pedophile priest. It may make you feel better but it won't do anything to address the problem.
Agreed no Mosque at or near ground zero!! Doug Hughes, there should be no fund raising for them, this country has enough issues to deal with in its economical state. I say they are on there own and need to find a different location.
And to boot this Mosque may get public funding. This kinda crap just makes me crazy. A Greek Orthodox Church that was near ground zero and destroyed has had blueprints and plans for years and they are not getting public funding nor approval. It does not matter most evry contractor in New York has already said that they won,t so much as dig a trench there.
I didn't mean to sound flippant about it. I was just saying that it wont really change anything for the 9/11 families and that this point can be forever argued with no real one answer. But I do hope more people realize the truth.
@Springboard: You wouldn't equate Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf with terrorism if you read his book, "What's Right With Islam."
I've seen the interview with Bradley, which are largely soundbites from the book. They are truncated excerpts only, and in no way reveal the measure of the man.
I can provide corroborating quotes from his book, if you are interested.
When you look around and see a 7-11 on every corner in sight, and then you see 7-11 come into the same area and build yet another store, you have to ask yourself what is the motivation? It's not convenience...companies don't accomodate convenience per se. Besides, there are already stores there! This is where their argument for the site falls apart. If you are of the Muslim faith, there are already plenty of mosques convenient to the site and the surrounding area. That leaves two reasons: 1. a tribute to the Muslims killed in 9/11 2. a tribute to the victory claimed on 9/11. Both are in poor taste and totally insensitive to those who suffered loss on that faithful day. Location has nothing to do with the Muslim faith and the practice of it. It has everything to do with the sensitivity of the victims and their families. That's all it boils down to in the end. On that basis, this is not a move that will build a bridge to stronger relations for Islam with the American citizen. In fact, it will go the other way. That mosque will serve as a marker of the stupidity, indecency, lack of sensitivity, and out right in your face arrogance of those who elect to put it there. If there is any sincerity in their thinking and any real desire for healing, their leaders would rethink this decision. There is no peace, love, or hand of sensitivity extended and if the project goes ahead as planned, there will be none offered as well. WB
Doug, while I agree with the premise of your comment, Imam Rauf is a very suspicious person based on all of the facts that I've stated in the comments thread numerous times. He may not have commanded the planes, and may not have Osama Bin Laden on speed dial, but I think the evidence speaks loud and clear that he's sympathetic to terrorists. That makes the Mosque suspect as well. And again, WHY NOT, if this is to truly build a bridge, make the building a non-denomination center for worship and memorial? Why make it just Muslim, especially considering the location?
RCH, I agree, and thanks for stopping by.
Tony, I was just reading an interesting hub on this topic who commented, "The dancing virgins will be old maids in wheel chairs before this Mosque is built," as he was referring to all of the red tape and difficulties that could become very much reality if the Mosque ever sees the first brick laid.
The hub was from TheManWithNoPants. I'll add the link to the "Hubs I've Read Recently" capsule above if anyone cares to read it.
Evvy, be flippant. It's a topic worthy of flippancy, if that's even a word. :)
Chasuk, perhaps I'll have to take a look at the book. I'll see if I can find a used copy though, just in case I'm inadvertently funding terrorism to some degree. I agree soundbites can not always tell the whole story, and am willing to give Imam Rauf the benefit of the doubt. Still, the statements he made, those soundbites, are poignant, derisive, divisive, and in every way, disturbing, and VERY difficult to get around.
Although, I would point out that even the title suggests that one could not get the fullest picture of the whole. What about what's wrong with Islam? Wouldn't that be an important part of the story?
Wayne, absolutely the truth. I couldn't have said it better, and in fact, I didn't. Spot on.
@ Chasuk, I like your reasoning, but it seems you are to unnecessarily stubborn to this issue. Americans are upset not because you guys want to build a mosque, but simply because the location is insulting and disrespectful. DO you know what it means, if after burning your house, I build mine just a few meters away? Yeah, you may say its the Al-Queeda, but lets face it, they also claim the name of Allah and they do that in respect to the holy Jihad. If someone kills your family in Buddha's name and thought they are an extremist sect, would you give a damn if they are a sect or not? All you care about is 'some people who worship Buddha killed your family and who ever carrys adores the name Buddha has automatically become your enemy. This is the point! This issue is a two way thing, if the Muslims claim they are not attached to terrorism, one of the ways they can prove this is by withdrawing from this plan. By so doing, they show their remorse to the affected family and as well show that they truly care. This is simple plain logic, the Islamists just want to take advantage of the constitution, please stop it!
I got an easy test for this so-called "religious freedom" hogwash: Lets go to the "Heart of Muslim Territory" and build a Church of Christ or some other symbolic gesture of a token...smack-dab beside one of their areas of worship and lets see how friendly they respond to the "Americans" and/or what happens afterwards. Yeah, whatever. There should be no fu*kin' Mosque built near ground zero, for more reasons than one!!!
@Dchosen_01: No, if a terrorist killed my family in Buddha's name, all Buddhists would NOT become my enemy. You have made my point precisely.
@Anti-Dolt: The world would not have advanced very far if we all waited for everyone else to take the first step.
I have to completely disagree with this hub. While I respect your opinion, it's a very dangerous and slippery slope that you're on. I can imagine conversations a lot like this taking place in Germany in the 1930s concerning the "evil Jews".
I did my time in the Army, and one of the things you learn real quick once you're overseas in these middle eastern countries where religious tolerance is little more than a punchline, is just how important the constitution is. For better or worse.
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" ~ Voltaire.
"America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating, at the top of his lungs, that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free, then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest." Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free."
~ Aaron Sorkin
"The American President"
@BGollihue: I agree with you 100%, of course.
Most excellent Springboard! I applaud your willingness to write this hub. Love your points! Completely agree with your assessment!
What needs to be done is to make a Spiritual Home for ALL beliefs.
Religion is NOT spirituality.
My heart goes out to all who lost a loved one on September 11 and I'm sure that NOT every one of the people who lost their lives belonged to a mosque.
This is my opinion too.
Anti-Dolt, they'd never in a million years let us get away with that. Not in a million, man. BTW, should I point out that there is no religious freedom in most Muslim countries? You are either a Muslim or you are an infidel, and part of Sharia law says if you are an infidel, you are as good as dead.
BG, while I agree with the premise of your argument, contextually it is wrong IMO. Though, I do respect your opinion—just want to point that out. I say this especially with regard to your 'evil Jews' argument. The Germans were not attacked by the Jews. The Jews WERE attacked by the Nazis. What do you think, if all of a sudden Nazis came around and said, "We're a different group of Nazis than the one's who took you to those gas showers, and we want you to know we're good people," and wanted to build a Nazi cultural center somewhere in Jerusalem. How well do you think that would go over? Granted the Nazi party is not a religion, but the gist of the idea of things is the same.
@Chasuk: The world doesn't advance with stupid steps like you promote, and by building a Mosque at the "ground zero" site is moving backwards my little hombre. Hmm, I believe you must endear things in reverse, instead... Maybe you get off on watching the toilet spiral backwards, depending on your geographic location, as well?
@Springboard: Man, I hope you're not talking to me. I already know they wouldn't let us get away with it and I sure-as-fu*k know about their stand on "religious freedom." That's why I said what I said. ...Maybe you were talking to the crowd or something, but let me just say, if I had it my way, all "organized religions" would be abolished from the face of this earth, and I would announce that Kindergarten class is over, if I had it my way. Our existence is way more diverse than these cartoon firgures that would be better depicted if drawn with crayons. Just think, I say these things and I'm not an atheist, either...
SpringBoard Thanks you for not censoring me like they censored the patrons of the Glenn Beck Rally by not allowing people to bring signs that express their thoughts and Freedom of speech.
Back to the point There was a mosque in TN burned to the ground. There is a mosque in California under attack. In Kentucky another mosque being denied built is under attack. Your statement "There are Mosques all over the country, and not one of them is controversial. It is ALL ABOUT Ground Zero, 911, and Radical Islam." is false.
Please explain the sensibility thing. I mean are you saying it is bad to build because they are muslims? I don't understand. Is this Islamic center a radical center? Do you Believe that all Muslims are radicals crazy extremest? I ask because there was time when people felt that desegregating schools was an attack on there sensibilities. If you believed that all black people were ignorant and bad then your sensibilities would have been under attack. What about the Mosque that has been there for the last 4 decades do they need to move it too. You can't say all Muslims are not radicals then deny them a place of worship wherever they want it.
I believe in America as a great nation and the light to the world. We as a society are supposed to be more advanced than all other societies in the world. It sucks that those that bombed the world trade center were claimed to follow Islam. It also sucks that the KKK claimed themselves to be Christians and in the name of Jesus hung and lynched many black Americans. It sucks that Tim Mcviegh claimed himself christian and blew up the federal building and it sucks that Catholic priest rape children. Yet no one is claiming that Christians are radicals and should not build churches where ever they want, or that Catholics should move any church near an elementary school. Would you advocate for that if not then why?
Ali Soufan, reputed to be the FBI’s most skillful terrorist interrogator after the Sept. 11 attacks, asserted Wednesday that opposition to building a mosque near Ground Zero is helping al-Qaeda. There are many reasons for supporting the Muslim community's right to build a cultural center and mosque on private property, not least of all the First Amendment of the Constitution guaranteeing freedom of religion,” wrote Soufan, a supervisory special agent with the bureau from 1997 to 2005, in an essay for Forbes and published online Wednesday.
“But from a national security perspective, our leaders need to understand that no one is likely to be happier with the opposition to building a mosque than Osama Bin Laden. His next video script has just written itself.”
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/08/mo
I say we cannot give these murders anymore ammo to create more murders. We cannot allow them to make our own Muslim Americans feel as if they are not accepted in our society. PROTECT THE FIRST AMENDMENT!
@Anti-Dolt: You really should learn to read before you respond. Nothing in your most recent reply remotely pertains to anything that I have yet said in these comments.
oi... well, I support the mosque. Guess I'm a horrible person now huh lol. oh well.
Whoever said that Christians have never ever done something as bad as 9/11 must not know much about history. Christians had something to do with the inquisition didn't they? Weren't the colonist Christians? How many Native Americans died by their hands? Timothy McVeigh was a Convervative Christian and yet people wouldn't complain about a church being built in the area of the Murrah Federal Building would they? People didn't protest Churches being built because of McVeigh did they? Muslims didn't attack the US, crazy Muslims attacked the US. Just like McVeigh was a crazy Christian. I grew up with Muslims and they actually sent their kid who was my best friend to a Christian School. If the people building this Mosque came out and said they were doing it to be insensitive then I wouldn't like the idea but since I don't know what they are thinking then I can't be upset with them building it. As for who is funding the mosque, from what I have seen and read it is a Saudi. He is the Saudi that apparently owns a chunck of the company that owns Fox News and he used to hang out with Gearge Bush at his ranch in Texas. Ironic that the station that is most upset about the Mosque is the one that is partially owned by the "bad guy muslim" that's funding the Mosque. We have freedom of religion in this country so you may not like the idea of the mosque but they have as much right as a Christian, Jew, or anyone else that want to open a religous building. If you think the government should stop the Mosque then don't complain when they take away your guns, your free speech, or any other time "big government" gets involved. You can't have it both ways. Plus singling out Muslims will only strengthen the stance of the extreme Muslims. By preventing their religious freedom you are recruiting the next wave of attackers.
Those of you that say we should build a Church in a Muslim country are comparing apples to watermelons. We live in a free country and all we as Americans talk about is our freedom. We are proud to be free. It's ok to be free to carry a gun. It's ok to be have free speech, freedom of press, and all other freedoms except religion. That's where people seem to ignore our freedoms. I have ancestors that left Europe because they weren't the right kind of Christians and their kind were being killed. Christians killing Christians! They came here for religious freedom. I America we have that freesdom, they don't have that in most Muslim countries. So to say you want to build a Church in Mecca is not even close to fair comparison. If you want to argue that Muslim countries are less tolerante of Christians then you have a point but to say if they can do it why can't we makes you just like the people you are against. So if they are wrong then so are you.
@J.Dizzle: You make many excellent points. Thank you.
Mwatkins, that's exactly what I think anything near Ground Zero with any religious association ought to be. Again, if it's truly a bride the Imam wants to create, this is the kind of center he should be building.
Chrys, thanks, and thanks for stopping by.
AntiDolt, I WAS speaking to you. Hmmm. Maybe my wording came off wrong. I was agreeing with what you said, and offered an additional anecdote. As to the abolishment of all organized religions, I think that may be a bit extreme, and I AM an atheist. Well, of sorts. It's difficult to explain. You'd have to read my "Religion Is Not Necessary" hub in order to understand. :)
Rasman, I appreciate your examples of other Mosques that have perhaps been targeted. Still, they are not representative, nor entirely related to what we are discussing here. There are radicals in all sects of society. One or two guys, or even a posse decide they don't like the Muslims and a Mosque gets burned down is not quite the same thing as what we're talking about here. This is a place where 3,000 innocent Americans lost their lives, under attack. This Mosque is also opposed by the majority...none of the other Mosques were. Most of us who think the Mosque at Ground Zero is insensitive do not oppose Mosques anywhere else. So this is not about Muslims. This is not about religion. It's not about religious freedom. It's about 911, and all of the aspects of that day, INCLUDING radical Islam. We need to be sure to make these distinctions.
You asked, "Please explain the sensibility thing. I mean are you saying it is bad to build because they are muslims? I don't understand. Is this Islamic center a radical center? Do you Believe that all Muslims are radicals crazy extremest?"
All I can say to that is to read some of the comments I made back to some of the other commenters on this thread, and that will answer all of those questions. The short answer is no to all of them.
While you're at it, do a little research on the man BEHIND the Mosque. Explore comments made by his wife, and then ask yourself what you think might be the real underlying purpose for the Mosque.
Any sensible Muslim would understand that building a Mosque so close to the place where 3,000 Americans died in an act of war BY a radical faction of their faith, is just NOT a good idea by any standard of reason.
As to not censoring comments? I would never do that. Like I said before, everyone is entitled to an opinion. And whether or not it agrees with mine, well...
The only comments that would likely get deleted, if I were to delete any, would be those which state their opinions in a way that is mean-spirited. As for the Glenn Beck rally, I think he was right to ban the signs. In an event like this I think it's okay to say, "Listen to what I have to say. When it's done, we can all discuss the points I've made. But hear the message before you decide what the message is that SHOULD be heard."
It would be sort of like coming in here, reading the title, and then commenting on the title rather than reading the hub to learn what I meant by it. Sometimes people don't want to know all the details...some of those guys with the signs are a lot like that.
What most people do not look at or think about is this law of freedom of religion. It was brought to this country and the law enforced by whom? What religion was that? What were these men thinking that gave this freedom? We all know that answer, or should, but like everything else in the government, they choose to overlook these things, as do many people.
The polls show that the same majority of Americans who oppose the Mosque also SUPPORT freedom of religion. You can count me in that camp as well. What is the issue here is NOT religious freedom. Hence, the title of this hub. Here is what I wrote in my commentary, "The issue here is not about the right to build the Mosque. It's not at all about religious freedom. It is about tolerance for the sensitivities of Americans, and especially tolerance for the sensitivities of the families of the nearly 3,000 innocent, civilian Americans who died on September 11, 2001 when 19 radical Islamic terrorist Muslims chose to attack the United States, and target American lives in honor of Allah, and for the cause of Islamic Jihad."
Did anybody ever think that the idea of building a Mosque near ground zero is a test? If I were a Muslim I wouldn't think of building a mosque near ground zero because of this exact situation. It seems most Americans think Muslim first then terrorist. America goes to the Middle East trying to use them for oil and push our Democracy and Christian beliefs on them. Yet when they come here to the land of the free they are criticized for wanting the freedoms Americans brag about. If you ever listened to what Bin Laden said in his rants he is angry at these sort of things. I'm not saying he is right but when you start hating on people becaue they are Muslim then you only strengthen his BS. That is the test! If America starts turning into Nazi Germany and making exceptions to the Constitution then they are winning the battle. When our government takes away freedom of religion they may take away our free speech, our guns, and any other freedom. When does it stop? We will be fighting another revolution against each other while the extreme Muslims laugh at us and take advantage of our situation. We have religious freedom so no matter how insensitive they may be, they still have the right. The constitution doesn't say freedom of Christian religions. It doesn't say excluding Islam. If you want government to control religion move. I hear China is pretty good a good place for that.
Dchosen_01: Your comment is the exact problem. By your logic I should hate all Mexicans for killing one of my best friends and I should hate all blacks for killing one of my other best friends. They were probably Christians too so I should hate them too. The KKK claims to be Christian yet the don't like Catholics who are Christians. They also kill black people yet I don't see black people hating Christians because of a small group of extemists. Do blacks protest a church being built that has the same religion as the KKK? Muslims are using the constituiton to their advantage just like all the different Christian denominations have been doing for over 200 years. It's no different then people using the freedom of speech to their own advantage.
Springboard, For once throughout your hub you actually made sense. I still disagree. I believe forcing them to move the Islamic Center is aiding the Enemy and that it sends a message to Muslim Americans that your religion is not welcomed. Muslims are victims of the crazy radicals. More Muslim blood has been spilled by the radicals than 9/11. The wars, the sanctions, our mid east policies is responsible for more than 100,000 deaths of Muslims than the 3,000 Americans and other countries citizens killed in 9/11. Great hub I think by now everyone on here is beating a dead horse. This is what is so great about America and I love my country. My Muslim family members love this country and they hate the fact that radicals have defined their faith.
I must say that I wish that those people that live Islam speak much louder against the radicals because the radicals have controlled the debate about rather Islam is peaceful or evil. I have a Quran and have concluded that it is really all Old testament scripture.
Private property, is private property and to tell an American Citizen they are not allowed to build whatever they want on the Property they own is against our values and slaps freedom in the face.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201008240027
I did some research om Feisal Abdul Rauf. I don't believe he is a radical in any sense. Without the Right Wing rhetoric and reading about him for what he has done for the US shows he is on our side and that he is against the radical elements of Islam like I hope you are against the radical elements of Christianity. President Bush believed in this man and because of that I believe Bush was right and made a good decision when he decided to be advised by this Imam. We need to focus our anger and criticism on the radical crazy murders that claim themselves to be Muslim. ALLAH means GOD in English just like Yahew means GOD and Jehovah means GOD.
Allah Akbar!!!! meaning "God is Great" and GOD is great. He has blessed all of us. So give thanks and praise. Honor Him and Honor the Christ Jesus. For only he can judge and will give wisdom to mankind.
I agree with all you said, except, I disagree with allowing radical groups disguised as 'religious' groups in this country. Just because they say God, does not make them or give them rights under our Constitution.
Can religious groups believing in human sacrifice be allowed? Nope
Neither can, nor should, Islamic beliefs. These guys have vowed the destruction of all but their faith. Based on protection alone we should not allow them here.
The old saying about if we fail to heed the warning of history, we are doomed to repeat it is sooo true.
As to faith, religions and history...well... How about Solomon in the Old Testament. Solomon, the Great Wise King, allowed each of His 1000+ wives to bring their "religion" into Israel, The Bible says Israelite were worshiping everything but the True God.
BTW, Take a Bible into their country see what happens. Open a church in their country and see what happens. These guys will not 'love' us if we show them our backside, they will only put a sword in it ! JJ :)
Springboard I agree with you about this mosque should not be built so close to ground zero and when I think of 911 I am reminded of the images that we saw on our television sets of a people in the middle east celebrating in the streets because Americans were dead. I cant believe that they were all "terrorist" but they certainly rejoiced in the fact that some Americans were dead. How could they be happy about that? Even though these terrorist have done this to us I don't get a thrill when I hear of masses of people in Iraq dieing in a bomb blast, so it bothers me terribly that they celebrate when America is hit and because of that it should give us pause when they want to build a mosque close to ground zero. And I agree that they should be able to build a mosque wherever EXCEPT THERE! Just the fact that this is causing so much heartburn with Americans should make everyone think twice about building because it is going to lead to violence close to that site I can just see it now. Congrats on this hub it was brilliant. Cheers.
I am a Muslim. Talking about 9/11 its is the worst thing happened in my life. I believe those involved in it were not Humans. They were Beast. Killing a Innocent person is like killing whole humanity. I am against it. If a Individual commits a sin, we cant blame whole mankind or religion. Let me give an example. Hitler Killed many Jews but no one can say all Christians are same. There are people like Mother Teresa, Abraham Linchon, Thomas Edison, Who spend their life to serve humanity. My openion is, A Individual cannot be the mascot of the community, religion or mankind. takin abt Mosque on ground zero. if the Christian brothers feel offended about that its better to build it somewhere else. becoz If you take care of the sentiments of other people its good deed infront of Almighty. Thats what i believe. If anyone has got any regrets Kindly let me know at
farhaan.shakeel@gmail.com
Thanking you all
This is a very well written hub. But you've tipped your hand with this very telling statement: "Yes, it is a part of the Constitution of the United States, a document which most of us conservatives, if not all of us, hold as one of the most sacred documents in our country, second only to perhaps the Bible itself."
So you admit you ARE speaking from the standpoint of religion -- otherwise you would not mention the Bible.
If you truly held the tenets of the Constitution sacred you would recognize that this IS a freedom of religion issue...
But I'm not here to argue that building a mosque within 3, 25 or even 100 blocks of Ground Zero is a good idea. On that score, I'm with President Obama. Just because they have the right (guaranteed under our Constitution) to do so doesn't mean it's the right (good, smart, wise, appropriate) thing to do.
It's clear from the public's reaction that America is still, understandably, angry and hurting from 9/11. The healing will take time, and this proposed project (and even more so, the media FRENZY surrounding it) have ripped the scab off.
J. Dizzle, with that bit of comparisons I believe you have swung wildly at the air. The ball is in the catcher's mitt already and you're still swinging away like it'll get to the end of your bat any minute. :)
For the record, this argument hasn't a thing to do with religion. Though there IS a religious context. But it's not the focus. We need to be clear in making that distinction when we argue about the Mosque issue.
Rasman, if you are going to make such a comparison, "our mid east policies is responsible for more than 100,000 deaths of Muslims than the 3,000 Americans and other countries citizens killed in 9/11," then I don't want you to leave out the millions of Kurds Suddam Hussein had put to death. We are comparing apples to oranges again, and frankly I find that statement anti-American and right out of the mouth of the Imam himself. Disgraceful. But I'm glad you found that even if you disagreed with most of anything I've said here, I at least made sense. For whatever that's worth, I'll take it. Beating a dead horse? Yeah, we beat it so bad at this point it's hard to know if it ever was a horse at all.
Jimmy, I'm not for banning anyone in this country, and certainly not religions, even if they are disguised. But I understand the gist of your point, and generally agree with most of it.
Ladyjane, those same ugly scenes of Muslims dancing in the streets as those buildings came down would be replayed as the ribbon would be cut and the doors to the Mosque so close by to Ground Zero would be opened wide. Victory. That is exactly what this is about. No argument made will ever convince me otherwise.
Farhaan, very true. But tell me how well a Nazi installation would go over smack dab in the middle of Israel? It's common sense. Maybe there are good Nazi's out there. There most definitely are good Muslims out there. And any of them can be who they are away from the places where the bad people have done some very bad things. Ground Zero is one of those places. Sensible Muslims should have the common sense to understand that building a Mosque in such a place is simply a very bad idea for very obvious reasons that even a two year old could understand.
Mighty Mom, nope. I am actually an atheist, or something very close to one. I only point out that Judeo-Christian philosophy is at the heart of the foundation of this country, its customs, its laws, and its people. I may not believe in the Bible. I may not believe in God. But I do believe in my country. And I am a patriot. And therefore I have no other choice but to be true and faithful to what this country is founded on, and understand that THAT is the very thing those 19 Muslim terrorists, and the radical Islamists, were out to destroy at its core. It's not about religion. But there IS a religious context. That was my point. Not to argue against the Constitution, but rather to use our good sense and best judgement to determine when some things are simply wrong, even if we have the right. Obviously this is not for us necessarily to decide. I'm not saying the government should stop the Mosque being built, and I don't even want the government to do that BECAUSE of the Constitution.
The Muslims need to use their heads. This Imam, for all his genious, should be able to clearly articulate in his mind what this Mosque means NOT TO HIM and the Muslims, but to the American people.
I would think this would be the last place they would want to build. I agree with your hub.
We need to look at Isalmic history and realize that everyplace that the built a Mosque was a sign of victory! If a Mosque was built on Ground Zero that is how the followers of Bin Ladin would see it as, a victory!
@yankeeintexas: Every location that Muslims build a mosque is a sign of victory?
You are grievously misinformed.
"the simplest answer to your question why do liberals always support any side that is not American or Patriotic? is that liberals are anti-America. I can see no other explanation. For whatever reason they hate America." -springboard
Well springboard when you say dumb stuff like that, you lose all credibility as far as having any kind of a brain goes.
Chasuk - you have the patience of a saint, as the saying goes. And of course you are 100% correct in all you've said here.
@Pandora: Thank you kindly. I'm not as patient as I seem, but I try. Anger is counterproductive in debate, so I curtail it whenever I can.
Barbara, that would make the most sense considering everything we know about the sentiment of the majority. It's what helps to make the entire issue of WHY HERE? so puzzling. Many Americans who are for the Mosque simply see things as black and white. They are unable to see the forest for the trees, or read between the lines.
Yankee, this one certainly is about victory. I just can't see any other reason to put it where they want to put it.
Chasuk, I would agree that not every Mosque is a victory Mosque. However, your comment misses the point that Mosque's like this one have been erected in places where Muslims conquered another religion's house of worship. Cordoba is a teeming example, which was built on top of a Christian church. Cordoba is a victory Mosque. The Mosque near Ground Zero is to be called Cordoba. Considering the Imam's statements since 911, the reality of the Mosque seems very clear to me, and thankfully, to a good portion of that 70% who oppose it.
Pandora, before you make such a claim I suggest you read some of my other hubs. I don't close my eyes to the facts. Most liberals do. And I DO absolutely believe that the liberal viewpoint of America is not in line with American values. I will stand by what I said.
Cordoba isn't a mosque. Cordoba is a province in Spain, and the capital of that province.
We know virtually nothing of the pagan (pre-Christian) history of Spain, but Christians have not always been there. Do you imagine that the pagans went peacefully?
Did the Christians sack existing pagan temples? Yes. Was this repeated hundreds of times across the planet? Yes. Were these replacement structures "victory" churches and cathedrals? Almost certainly.
Did Islam usurp Christianity in Spain, erecting mosques over churches and cathedrals? Yes. Were these replacement structures "victory" mosques? Almost certainly.
The Great Mosque of Cordoba is a Christian cathedral, not a mosque. This cathedral was built over the site of a mosque, which was built over the site of an Arian (non-trinitarian, nothing to do with Aryan racial theology) church, which was built over the site of a pagan temple.
But all of this usurpation of holy ground is irrelevant. These were invaders. The bulk of Christianity threw their forces against Spanish pagans. The bulk of Islam threw their forces against Spanish Christians. The bulk of Christianity eventually fought back.
The bulk of Islam does not approve of the 9/11 attacks, despite the dishonest representations of the media. Islam has been a whipping boy of the Christian West since before the Crusades. If mass media had existed then, the reports would have been the same. Violence and villainy sells.
During Islam's rule of Spain, Moses Maimonides was born in Cordoba. Maimonides was one of the most important rabbinic interpreters in Jewish history. Yet he lived and flourished in Islamic Spain.
How was this possible? It was possible because Islam ensured that Spain was peaceful and tolerant towards the Jews. That's what the name Cordoba celebrates, not victory over Christianity or the West.
What a fantastic hub! And I read most of the comments which are equally interesting and thought provoking. Thanks.
That was a great hub. I like your point of view.
Springboard - I thought the whole idea of building a Mosque at Ground Zero was just stupid when I first heard about it. But now I hear that it is a community center with swimming pools, etc. sort of like a YMCA for Muslims. And, it's 2 blocks away from, not on Ground Zero. And the other thing is that it was a foreign entity who bombed NYC, not Americans. A lot of Muslim people come to the US because of the freedoms that we offer. They wish to leave their intolerant countries behind. There are many confusing sides to this issue.
Great history lesson Chasuk. Still, what Cordoba, also known as the Great Mosque of Cordoba represents is what is significant.
Vocalcoach, and on this one that's quite a task, reading the comments. This hub definitely opened up a can of worms. :)
Kyle246, thanks, and thanks for stopping by.
Delores, sure we can go ahead and call it a community center. Yes, that's what they've been alluding to. We'll build a KKK cultural center and put in ferris wheels and bumper cars. We'll put a Nazi cultural center in the middle of Israel and have Whack-A-Mole machines and big animated animals dancing and singing while kids eat pizza...
It's what's beneath the surface that counts. It's what's between the lines that counts. They think we're stupid. Let's not let them prove it. If you want to really build a bridge, and you want to make it a cultural center for anything, make it be an American cultural center which honors the CULTURE of America being full of MANY religions...you don't build a cultural center for the religion who attacked us only and call it a bridge.
@Springboard: Yes. What the Great Mosque represents is significant. Did you miss the part that it is a Christian cathedral, and not a mosque? Did you miss the part that it represents peace and tolerance? I'll state it bluntly: Anyone who tells you otherwise is unacquainted with historical fact, or lying in the pursuit of their own agenda.
To me it doesn't matter. The history of Mosques and why they are built in certain places matters. We can go round and round on the entire issue and we'll still end up in the same place.
Springboard, I am no where near anti-American. Most of my Family served even my uncles that are Muslim so get off it with the conservative talking points. It is not Anti-American to point out that America has killed many more Muslims than they killed Americans. You try to deny this truth look it up thank god for the internet. It is American to point our faults dude. Truthfully I am not an Iraqi so if Saddam Killed millions of his own then what the hell does that have do with me and my point? I am an American. Why is it that when Americans disagree with conservatives they call us Anti-American. Will you even answer my question. Probably not cause most Fake conservatives do not. I will ask anyway. How many muslims have the US killed or wounded? Not the terrorist Killers I am glad we killed many of them but innocent civilians? Do you believe we have killed or wounded less than those those murdered on 9/11?
Ok you are right though about the horse I can't tell neither. Made me laugh pretty good. Spring Board I am a true Conservative and have gotten disenfranchised over the current so called conservative movement. Republicans have forgotten our roots. I agree about the round and round. Your hub has become one hell of a merry go round.
Keep up the good writing man I really enjoyed it even with your anti-American insult. Especially your hub on the Black Panthers.
First of all, The United States was not founded based on "Judeo-Christian philosophy." I am surprised that this would even be suggested in an article that has a link to a Pat Condell video.
And second, while I agree that it is in rather poor taste to build a mosque so close to ground zero, only a truly dimwitted ignoramus would ever equate the average American Muslim with the fundamentalists responsible for 9/11.
If this was a country of rational human beings we would just ignore the damn thing altogether. It's obviously not a security threat and what use is a symbol if nobody looks at it? But of course people can't help but look, they can't help but get indignant because they are too ignorant to realize that it is their own reaction that represents the victory of the terrorists. When we become hostile and overly sensitive about petty occurrences like these, the terrorists have won. They have made us uncomfortable and paranoid in our own homes.
Ground zero hasn't become a monument to American spirit and resolve, not yet. It's still exactly what the terrorists meant for it to be, a festering wound that America can't bring itself to sew shut.
And let's not forget that the U.S. has been wreaking havoc in the Muslim world for decades. They've had a much worse time of it than us. And, while that is not directly related to the issue at hand, if you can't suck it up over this minor incident then you are, to be blunt, a complete pussy. If there's one thing that is anti-American, it's being a pussy. And when hurt feelings come before the ideals of the constitution, that's a sad indication that "pussy" has become a majority demographic.
@ EdG HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Damn. Sorry I found this Hub so late in the game, Springboard. LOVE the Hub, and enjoyed a great many of the comments.
Of course we've heard the "What about the Crusades" question, which is always spoken by those with little understanding of history. The Crusades were a DEFENSIVE action fought against an invasionary force of Muslims who had been sacking largely Christian cities like Constantinople. Not one word in the letters written by the men who proposed and financed them, about religion or faith.
We also heard the obligatory "Timothy McVeigh was a Conservative Christian" fantasy. He was a liberal, animal rights, environmentalist whack-job of the first order. He hated conservatives and capitalism.
Then the KKK is brought up as "Christian Terrorists." The KKK was a DEMOCRAT sponsored, political terrorist organization, which practiced domestic terrorism while hiding behind Christianity. Christians all across America denounced them as vile and reprehensible. Still do. Nor did the KKK seek to "make the world KKK." Which is the clear and open goal of Islam.
Of the 1.5 BILLION Muslims around the world, how many are currently, actively, denouncing Islamic Terrorism? You can't even get a Muslim Student Association to denounce Hamas. I can walk into any Catholic church in the world right now, and find millions of parishioners who will gladly and publicly demand the trial and sentencing of any Priest who has harmed a child. And I'm not even CLOSE to Catholic.
All the "Havoc" which America has wreaked on the Muslim World is to supply it with the means and opportunity to make itself filthy rich on petro-dollars. Left to their own, questionably "peaceful" ways, they would still be locked into 6th Century AD practices and technologies.
Jihad is a hard word to translate out of Koranic Arabic. There is no direct translative word in virtually any currently used language on Earth. The Warlord mentality of their first prophet, and their many written directives to "spread Islam by the sword" speak to the very heart of the issue.
The men who killed over 3000 American Citizens on 9/11/01 were not "hiding" behind poorly translated, not-currently-used-or-widely-accepted verses from the Koran. They were striking a blow against the Great Satan, and celebrated the world over by their Muslim Brothers, who read the same verses they did, and applauded their actions.
Cordoba House is just another step in the global domination Psy-Ops plan of a long-term-thinking strategical enemy. Bin Laden will be happy either way, mosque built or no. It will be spun, to those who hate that America can even HAVE conversations of this nature, as either evidence of our weakness, or evidence of our disunity.
From the moment that build-site was denied Historical Landmark status and simply declared "private property," the die have been cast. If we allow it to be built "America is so stupid they let us build a Shrine to their defeat!" If we stop it from being built "Americans hate all Islam, and killing them is just and right."
If you don't think we're in a war for our very way of life, you're guilty of refusing to learn the lessons of History. Wasn't there a saying about how that makes you doomed, on some issue or other?
Voted Up and Awesome, Springboard. Keep On Hubbin!
@American Tiger: You spout a lot of misinformation here, but I don't currently have the time to refute all of it.
However, about the Crusades...
The Crusades were unarguably religiously sanctioned campaigns. Their original purpose was the liberation of Jerusalem. They were both defensive and offensive, as are most wars. Philip II (of France) and Richard the Lionheart (of England) both fought in the Crusades. Notably, Constantinople was not in France or England.
Chasuk, I'm always willing to look at factual information, especially if it's counter to that which I've based an opinion on. I AM curious how Constantinople not being in France or England -a fact none will question- imputes the Crusades to be "religiously sanctioned campaigns." Further: How does "sanctioned" magically become Christian Aggression?
Men of any faith are wont to say "God is on our side." That is in no way cause to say they meant "God told us to go to war." In all the translated correspondence I've read of the 4 major Crusades, not a word was spoken on "changing the heathen's religion." These were all deeply religious men, to be sure, but they were motivated by saving the lives of Christians being pillaged by Saracens (Muslims) in cities like Antioch, Edessa, Constantinople and Jerusalem.
Again, not a damned word about "changing the heathen's religion," nor were any of the cities they freed of Muslim build or origin. They were all non-Muslim cities and City-States that had been overrun by the "Saracen hoards". The people of those cities had been asking for Northern help for years, before action was taken.
I might also like to note that all those beautiful Byzantine Mosques that Islam likes to claim it built, were the design and work of slaves taken from Byzantium. Architects and skilled craftsmen forced into slavery instead of killed outright for not accepting Islam as their religion.
When someone says "What about the Crusades" if an effort to point out Christian Aggression, I don't know weather to laugh harder about their complete lack of historical context, or that the only point they hope to make is over 800 years old.
@American Tiger: Sorry, my responsive was oblique. You referred to the Crusades as a defensive action, and then spoke of Constantinople. I observed that Constantinople was not in France or England, implying that it was too far away for its invasion to be a strictly defensive action. This has nothing to do with the Crusades being religiously sanctioned, but the liberation of Jerusalem did. Obviously you disagree.
You do make good points. I need to think about them before replying further.
Rasman, I no more count the civilian casualties after the fact than I count American soldiers as additional victims of 911. Nor will I associate any casualties foreign or American with U.S. foreign policy. I don't consider that to be a denial of the faults America, like any country, may have. As to your conservative claim, you certainly don't sound like a conservative to me, but then that's not for me to decide overall.
As for the dead horse, obviously this an issue we'll never agree on, but I look forward to finding another issue which we'll surely be able to agree on. On the anti-American comment, perhaps that WAS a bit unfair, still I cannot deny hearing a lot of anti-American sentiment in your tone. It's definitely there, at least from my perspective. I can, of course, be wrong.
This a great hub! And the comments are great too ....for both sides! It really gives one something to think about.
Politics and religion has done nothing but cause death, violence and destruction. It has done more harm than good. In my mind these two human created systems are viruses in the existence of our own existence within our scope of what we know. It only exists to keep us humans from loosing our minds... from asking the inevitable question... Why are we here? Remove politics and religion from your life and live a happy one at that. Love feels more fulfilling than hate a simple system that answers many questions, if there was software available to eliminate the religious and political virus, our world would be a haven.
EdG, I suggest whatever it is you are drinking, you stop immediately.
American Tiger, you are a definite voice of reason. It was a joy to read your rational thought in amongst so much Kool-Aid stuff. Thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts.
Magnoliazz, it is certainly an impassioned topic. That's for sure. :)
Fabrizio, what you suggest would also remove human intelligence which is at the root of both politics and religion. We think, therefore we are. A world of unitelligent, unthinking people would take all the fun out of being human in my opinion. The challenge is using our intelligence, ultimately, to avoid destroying ourselves.
We are damned if we do and damned if we don't.If the mosque is built near ground zero then the terrorist will have a SYMBOLIC victory.If we stop the mosque from being built we violate the civil rights of american citizens who had nothing to do with 9/11.If we do that then we turn our backs on the constitution, and we open up the door for complete intolerance,and the terrorist will have a even bigger victory.
It's a conundrum easily avoided by the builders of the Mosque simply coming to the realization that their proposal will do nothing to support the cause they are aiming for. It's a matter of prudence on their part which is the issue here. I've said it before, I'm not for stopping the Mosque from being built. I'm for sensibilties and sensitivities to be prevailing factors in the decision not to build the Mosque.
Springboard,
Great Hub, you are wholly correct that this Islamic center cannot be built, to do so is an affront to all those that were murdered on 9/11. This “center” has only one purpose just as it’s namesake in Spain was, 756 through 1031, a monument to Muslim victory over the infidel.
I wrote a hub at the beginning of the controversy with a plan of exactly how to extinguish it. That hub can be summed up in this phrase,
“Strong hands that heroically fought through the rumble in a search of survivors will not build a monument to their murder!”
Ooh. I LOVE that line. Awesome.
I'm in the middle...I wish they wouldn't build it there, however, there were Muslim Americans in the towers when they went down, and there were Mosques there in the months before, both towers I believe.
I'm thinking we're all upset at the "in the face" part, they don't want to seem to be "giving in" to "us."
I think the opposition of this will only continue to deteriorate relationships.
We need to make sure any organization is not working against America, whatever that may mean, but I don't think all Muslim organizations are equal to risk by existing.
To maintain freedom for all of us, there is always some risk. It's a tough situation. Calm thinking is needed.
Springboard - I'm in agreement with RTE on this and I would add that it is becoming more apparent daily this is not about religion it's about money, and the attempt to cloak their greed in Islam.
Marisue, whether or not there was a Mosque there before to me matters little. There was the World Trade Center headquarters there too, and they're not rebuilding THAT. This Mosque is everything to do about Muslim victory, not building bridges. You say, "I think the opposition of this will only continue to deteriorate relationships." I think building it will do that. The mere talk of it has incited protest from better than 70% of Americans, and many of those are sensible Muslims who understand the nature of this location. Muslim's relationships with Americans has severely deteriorated since the Imam came out and told America what he planned to do.
Hmrjmr1, I'm not so sure there's a money agenda for the radicals. These guys are after something else. As for the Mosque, I think the heart of its purpose lies in declaring victory.
They outlawed Christianity from schools that our country was founded on, yet Muslims not only can worship in schools but have special rooms Christians are forced to help pay for. Maybe their rugs too I am not sure about that but it certainly would not surprise me. Why do we let things like this happen? We should all march and shout until they let Christianity back in or just have none if they want to be fair although our one 5 minute prayer doesn't compare to Muslims five times a day and as many have claimed pushing it to the limit.
Polly, I think in this country we've softened a little bit as a people. Not as a whole, but to a large extent we are more willing to cave on our personal convictions so as not to alienate the other side. In so doing, unfortunately, the folks who give it up lose more of their own stuff. I personally don't get it, but that's where we are.
I have a different view of our history. I have a different belief in how those towers came down. You have a nice post that I can't comment on but could only change the subject and point toward one of the shoddiest investigations of this last hundred years, at least. Sorry folks. Those towers were imploded. I don't know what else happened - but those towers were imploded. AND - our government was negligent in preventing 911. Thanks.
Americans like you disturb me, Micky, and I mean that in the nicest way possible. I simply do not trust Americans who do not trust Americans. It's as simple as that for me. Still, that said, I value the ability in this country to have an opinion, and certainly value your opinion, even if it disagrees with my own. So, therefore, your debate, and your ideology, however twisted I may think it to be, will always be welcome here.
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dahoglund Level 7 Commenter 21 months ago
Thge President rather annoyed me by talking about the obvious because he was implying that some of us don't respect those rights, or know about them. I don't like being talked down to, which he has a tendency to do.